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Nestor and Cloaking

Author
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#21 - 2014-06-17 08:00:01 UTC
Arean Proktor wrote:


I strongly disagree. People will never ever sell a Nestor for 200mio - even if they got it from a drop - if the next lowest price tag is 1,6bil. They will try to sell it for 1,599bil... Lowest price tag is due to LP worth set to 1,6bil... this is a fact. Don*t try to explain it with Magic, cause it's only maths.


This ! (My TL;DR, thx) Pirate


Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#22 - 2014-06-17 11:03:12 UTC
Arean Proktor wrote:


I strongly disagree. People will never ever sell a Nestro for 200mio - even if they got it from a drop - if the next lowest pricetag is 1,6bil. They will try to sell it for 1,599bil... Lowest pricetag is due to LP worth set to 1,6bil... ist a fact. Dont try to explain it with Magic, cause ist only maths.


200m was an extreme low, and as long as people are making buy orders for almost the same as sell orders it wont change much in price.
After a few more months with not selling your Nestor @ 1.5b, most people will actualy lower their price to actualy sell it. After time it will go down to where enough people are willing to buy it.
The FACT is that people are more htan willing to buy a Nestor for 1.4b, while 900m is the selling price for the other pirate battleships. As long as there is another way to gain the ship than LP store, its not LP that dictate price.
Do you realy belive a Nestor would still cost 1.5b if not a single one was sold for that price yet?
Arean Proktor
Chilli Joe
#23 - 2014-06-17 11:45:21 UTC
No. But I do believe nobody will buy them in the LP store. So price will pretty much stay the same. Might go down a bit due to drops but never on a level to justify the pricetag. Either Nestor get a better niche, lower Price or it will stay forever a "lulz for killmails"/hangarqueen. But if you want to prove me wrong, go ahead: run missions for SoE and sell Nestor for 800mio (still wont buy it tho...)
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#24 - 2014-06-17 13:05:18 UTC
Arean Proktor wrote:
No. But I do believe nobody will buy them in the LP store. So price will pretty much stay the same. Might go down a bit due to drops but never on a level to justify the pricetag. Either Nestor get a better niche, lower Price or it will stay forever a "lulz for killmails"/hangarqueen. )


Why would i sell them for 800m when i can sell them to BUY orders for 1.4b...
Thats almost 2900 isk/LP from 0.0 or 1800 isk/LP from high sec, and last i checked (12hrs ago) wou could sell 11 ships for that price. 4.4m 0.0 LP or 6.6m high sec LP.
As it stands thats MORE from high sec SoE LP than Vindicators, the highest priced pirate BS atm. Using Rattlesnake as an example again its 3.2 time more per LP than Gurista

Arean Proktor wrote:
But if you want to prove me wrong, go ahead: run missions for SoE and sell Nestor for 800mio (still wont buy it tho...)

My point is that there are people that think this ship is worth the current price, people are willing to bay it and thats where supply/demand put the price. If the ship did not sell at this price it would be lower, and thats why i have been using the Rattlesnake as an example, its price is have nothing to do with LP value since the supply from drops is higher/high enough to support the demand.

Would you buy a Nestor for 400m? 300? what is the price where you think it will be used?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#25 - 2014-06-17 19:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

My point is that there are people that think this ship is worth the current price, people are willing to bay it and thats where supply/demand put the price. If the ship did not sell at this price it would be lower, and thats why i have been using the Rattlesnake as an example, its price is have nothing to do with LP value since the supply from drops is higher/high enough to support the demand.

Would you buy a Nestor for 400m? 300? what is the price where you think it will be used?


No, no, no ! Stop with these non-related arguments and false conclusions. The ship is worth the current price, because that's what it costs to make, it has nothing to do with supply and demand (only valid above minimum production price). Show me one person that makes a long lasting business by selling something under the value that it costs him to make it. We are not talking about the odd sell, the clear out or liquidations of assets due to other pressures, we are simply talking cost vs price. And the drop rates are so low, why would anyone consider them as a standard.
As long as ships are being exchanged vs the LP no drop will play a role in driving the market down. And Nestors are being used in Incursion, just because some don't PvP or explore in them doesn't mean they don't get used, exchanged and prices will drop.
And don't come with 'Uhh, they cost less with The Sanctuary' show me anyone getting there and mass transporting Nestors ti Jita to have an impact on the market, the gate is camped.

Stop deluding yourself.

And now enough of this, the thread is about the Nestor stats not the market value.

Edit (in regards to the post below): Not gonna post again to bump this, its redundant. Nobody argues any relation between price and stats and supply demand above the minimum production price. And I haven't seen any sells from Nestor BPC drops yet.
And to contradict you again, you had no and still have no point. Its like talking to religious people that think science and making up **** gets equal discussion time, because both are seemingly 'opinions' or 'theories', each with their own 'facts'. Just because you wish it were so, doesn't make it true and just because there are some grains of circumstantial truths hidden in your accumulation of non related conceptions of how the market works, doesn't mean we can call it even and both be right or agree or that you have a point.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#26 - 2014-06-17 19:39:53 UTC
Market value and stats are related, its traded at a value higher than any other pirate BS (not counting Barghest thats even newer)
Even the Vindicator as the most expensive pirate BS is less isk/LP than you can easily get from other items.
That no of the other pirate BS's are prices after LP value but supply/demand should be enough to prove my point
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#27 - 2014-06-17 21:58:39 UTC
Maybe once Black Ops are on the table for rebalancing, we'll see the ship change a little-if I could ask mine a question, it'd be "Do you ever think there's more to life than being really, really ridiculously good looking?"

I kept saying it, and even though a lot of people don't agree, I think it should have a cov-ops cloak- maybe BLOPS will end up getting them, who knows- then maybe it'd be considered more openly for this ship.
Belinda HwaFang
Iris Kinetics - Aquisitions
#28 - 2014-06-17 22:35:11 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
it says in the description of why it doesnt have a covert ops cloak on it. Not even the black ops ships can use covert cloaks, so why should a nestor.


Did you read his post?
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#29 - 2014-06-17 23:11:51 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
DEV response to: Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended


CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).


This is false. The SOE line was originally conceived based on a few elements, none of which had to do with cloaks. The original idea actually existed before I got to CCP and the main goals at first were to combine lasers and drones for the most renewable weapon loadout possible so that long deployment would be easy and also to make a very flexible ship that would emulate the Gnosis due to its popularity but limited nature. As always we went through a lot of iteration and eventually arrived at the covert solution for the Astero and Stratios and felt good about that. The Nestor was a bit of a puzzle for awhile and eventually we settled on logistics as the main theme, which was an idea that showed up internally and in the community.

... (snip)...

Again, it wasn't 'meant' to be a covert ship, and there is no shortage of bravery [on the DEV's part] here, I assure you.


Imagine that, a commonly talked about issue already has a thread dedicated to the topic. I sure wish there was a way to search the forums and consolidate responses(like I dunno number 16 suggests) to make them easier to search for. Too bad there's no way to do that.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-06-17 23:24:33 UTC
Search never works on either chrome or firefox for me. So there's that.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#31 - 2014-06-18 00:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Search never works on either chrome or firefox for me. So there's that.

Something on your end then. I'm using the latest firefox browser and it works fine.

*Notes that this is dangerously off topic.* Arrow
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-06-18 12:28:50 UTC
The most important thing to change about Nestor is to make it stop looking like a blender or a dil*o. After that I may be interested in making it actually useful.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#33 - 2014-06-18 12:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Arean Proktor wrote:
No. But I do believe nobody will buy them in the LP store. So price will pretty much stay the same. Might go down a bit due to drops but never on a level to justify the pricetag. Either Nestor get a better niche, lower Price or it will stay forever a "lulz for killmails"/hangarqueen. )


Why would i sell them for 800m when i can sell them to BUY orders for 1.4b...
Thats almost 2900 isk/LP from 0.0 or 1800 isk/LP from high sec, and last i checked (12hrs ago) wou could sell 11 ships for that price. 4.4m 0.0 LP or 6.6m high sec LP.
As it stands thats MORE from high sec SoE LP than Vindicators, the highest priced pirate BS atm. Using Rattlesnake as an example again its 3.2 time more per LP than Gurista

Arean Proktor wrote:
But if you want to prove me wrong, go ahead: run missions for SoE and sell Nestor for 800mio (still wont buy it tho...)

My point is that there are people that think this ship is worth the current price, people are willing to bay it and thats where supply/demand put the price. If the ship did not sell at this price it would be lower, and thats why i have been using the Rattlesnake as an example, its price is have nothing to do with LP value since the supply from drops is higher/high enough to support the demand.

Would you buy a Nestor for 400m? 300? what is the price where you think it will be used?



I imagine if you actually tried to sell the nestor you had bought elsewhere or built you would find that the purchaser would be unable to pay for the order as it was a margin trade scam. Speculators are desperately trying to find any suckers going to make a buck or just get out of this disaster.
CCP still have not realised that the market they intended(wormholes) just will not buy an uncloaked warp battleship and take it out of the home hole. There are better and/or cheaper ships that do useful roles that cannot travel in WH Space, and all the extras and goodies they add on will make no more difference than putting electric windows and heated seats on a car that cannot fit wheels.

There is precisely one use for a battleship that warps uncloaked in wormholes more than one jump from the Home Hole.
Bait.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#34 - 2014-06-19 03:09:06 UTC
My vote goes to make the nestor the only logistics enabled black ops ship. It should be transformed to a full fledge faction black ops...

No covert cloak for battleships IMHO.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Aakkonen
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-06-19 13:36:27 UTC
ugh... how many times I have to say this... I DONT WANT COVERT CLOAK in BS's just speed bonus from BlOps

But as Saisin said it would be rather nice to have Cloaky capable Logistics ship that doesnt cost over 60 bil (Etana)

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7

Coyote Laughing
#36 - 2014-06-22 11:16:49 UTC
Aakkonen wrote:
ugh... how many times I have to say this... I DONT WANT COVERT CLOAK in BS's just speed bonus from BlOps

But as Saisin said it would be rather nice to have Cloaky capable Logistics ship that doesnt cost over 60 bil (Etana)


I'd be okay with simply giving it a covert ops cloak, but forcing it to decloak to do logistics.

That would also let it jump with Black Ops Battleships, but not generate the covert portal itself and preserve the exclusive role.

The 200% bonus is okay, but maybe switching to a drone logistics bonus instead (so it has two high slots left for cloaking and probe launchers)?

l8r \o/

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#37 - 2014-06-22 11:35:44 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
I'd be okay with simply giving it a covert ops cloak, but forcing it to decloak to do logistics.

That would also let it jump with Black Ops Battleships, but not generate the covert portal itself and preserve the exclusive role.

The 200% bonus is okay, but maybe switching to a drone logistics bonus instead (so it has two high slots left for cloaking and probe launchers)?


Can you please stay out of discussions you have no clue about.

No active module will work while cloaked ... not sure why you hint, that a cov ops can rep while cloaked and want to forcibly decloak it as a penalty on the Nestor.

Sorry, if this breaks any rules, but to be polite, I'll call 'rubbish' when I see it.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#38 - 2014-06-22 11:43:54 UTC
A Covert ops cloak would fix alot, but as far as i know that comes with warping cloaked and no battleship have that ability. If it was some way to prevent cloaked warping for a cov ops cloaked ship i would support that. Or if its possible to black ops bridge without the cloak that would also give it alot more use
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#39 - 2014-06-22 11:48:06 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
A Covert ops cloak would fix alot, but as far as i know that comes with warping cloaked and no battleship have that ability. If it was some way to prevent cloaked warping for a cov ops cloaked ship i would support that. Or if its possible to black ops bridge without the cloak that would also give it alot more use


The warp-while cloaked attribute of the covered ops is the main thing that makes it a covered ops. The option to give the Nestor a reduction to the speed penalty has already been made above and does not require the cov ops installment at all.
Coyote Laughing
#40 - 2014-06-22 12:10:28 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Can you please stay out of discussions you have no clue about.

Sorry, if this breaks any rules, but to be polite, I'll call 'rubbish' when I see it.


If you want to be polite, give me a reasoned argument and support it with a few examples.

l8r \o/

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