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Nestor and Cloaking

Author
Aakkonen
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-06-16 18:14:22 UTC
Ookies we have stratios and astero. Both can use Covert cloak while being T1 ships. Why Nestor dont get any bonuses in cloaking? for being a search and rescue ship designed to move dep space and return in one piece its odd that it has no bonuses for cloaking.

I am not saying that give it a Covert cloak but instead 300% role bonus to speed while cloaked. then it would move normal speed in cloak like BlOps does. And it would make sense that SoE has some hightech in their ships (T1's with covert ability). For now Nestor doesnt have many uses except very blingy RR ship.

My 2 cents

Aakkonen

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7

Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-06-16 18:34:43 UTC
I am sure the Nestor will get revisited.
Right now it is mostly a hanger queen.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#3 - 2014-06-16 18:40:21 UTC
it says in the description of why it doesnt have a covert ops cloak on it. Not even the black ops ships can use covert cloaks, so why should a nestor.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#4 - 2014-06-16 18:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
DEV response to: Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended


CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).


This is false. The SOE line was originally conceived based on a few elements, none of which had to do with cloaks. The original idea actually existed before I got to CCP and the main goals at first were to combine lasers and drones for the most renewable weapon loadout possible so that long deployment would be easy and also to make a very flexible ship that would emulate the Gnosis due to its popularity but limited nature. As always we went through a lot of iteration and eventually arrived at the covert solution for the Astero and Stratios and felt good about that. The Nestor was a bit of a puzzle for awhile and eventually we settled on logistics as the main theme, which was an idea that showed up internally and in the community.

... (snip)...

Again, it wasn't 'meant' to be a covert ship, and there is no shortage of bravery [on the DEV's part] here, I assure you.
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#5 - 2014-06-16 19:21:24 UTC
What is a Nestor?

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.

Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-06-16 19:38:01 UTC
The reasoning behind the hull really is irrelevant when the hull has no demonstrable place in the game. There's no need for a weak logistic extremely expensive hull in EVE so it needs to go through more iterations. Even when its worth <1B it still won't see much use.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#7 - 2014-06-16 19:39:06 UTC
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
What is a Nestor?

Nestor is a ship people like to be WORTH using at 2b, when it was never intended to be 2x as powerfull as pirate BS's.

The Nestor cost an arm and a leg, but its still worth it since people still buy them. Its simple suplpy /demand and atm the demand is high enough that it cost this much...
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#8 - 2014-06-16 19:41:06 UTC
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
What is a Nestor?

A kitchen utensil.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-16 19:44:47 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
What is a Nestor?

Nestor is a ship people like to be WORTH using at 2b, when it was never intended to be 2x as powerfull as pirate BS's.

The Nestor cost an arm and a leg, but its still worth it since people still buy them. Its simple suplpy /demand and atm the demand is high enough that it cost this much...

How many are traded per day? Supply/demand breaks down at low trade volumes where all trades are just conducted by dummies.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#10 - 2014-06-16 19:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
What is a Nestor?

Nestor is a ship people like to be WORTH using at 2b, when it was never intended to be 2x as powerfull as pirate BS's.

The Nestor cost an arm and a leg, but its still worth it since people still buy them. Its simple suplpy /demand and atm the demand is high enough that it cost this much...

How many are traded per day? Supply/demand breaks down at low trade volumes where all trades are just conducted by dummies.


Very few are traded (3-20 per day), but on the other side there are BUY order for 1.45b. Thats higher than the Barghest and 50% over the other pirate BS's.

If we ignore the Barghest atm (new and prices have yet to settle, same as for Nestor) there is a total of 5 (FIVE) pirate battleships on sell order in Jita thats higher than the buy orders for Nestor (all 5 are Vindi, rest are in the 1b range)

So apart from Vindicator/Barghest, buy orders for Nestors are 50% higher than sell orders for other pirate battleships. This indicate that people are more than willing to pay 50% more for Nestor, so it have some appeal be it for combat or station spinning
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-06-16 20:12:25 UTC
Conclusively, station spinning or just plain showing off.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-06-16 20:44:46 UTC
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
What is a Nestor?

CCP's biggest troll ever.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#13 - 2014-06-16 20:52:42 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Conclusively, station spinning or just plain showing off.

May very well be the case, but sooner or later that market will be filled and the price will go down to where people are willing to buy and use it.

Its still supply/demand even if the demand is for station spinning or showing off.

Would be nice to have a dev give us some insight in how many Nestors come into the game compared to other pirate battleships, basicly how many Nestor chips drop compared to the droprate for Vindicator/Nightmare/Bhaalgorn/Machariel
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#14 - 2014-06-16 22:20:24 UTC
Besides the main post, the price is set by the cost, not just demand and supply, that*s why the nestor will never drop under 1.2 bil or what the break point was (not checking it now). It's either worth that or won't be built.
Don't forget, sisters LP are worth more then double all other LPs, at least before Kronos. Morduus Legion LP are probably the same or higher for the moment, that's why the barghest is still so expensive (including speculations).

In regards to the OP, I also believe the Nestor needs some revising, either in the add of bandwidth and/or PG. I am not sure of just adding a cov ops will do it or should even be the change.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#15 - 2014-06-16 22:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Besides the main post, the price is set by the cost, not just demand and supply, that*s why the nestor will never drop under 1.2 bil or what the break point was (not checking it now). It's either worth that or won't be built.
Don't forget, sisters LP are worth more then double all other LPs, at least before Kronos. Morduus Legion LP are probably the same or higher for the moment, that's why the barghest is still so expensive (including speculations).

In regards to the OP, I also believe the Nestor needs some revising, either in the add of bandwidth and/or PG. I am not sure of just adding a cov ops will do it or should even be the change.


Its not LP price that set the price, its drops vs demand

Little math:
Vindicator sell price: 950.000.000
LP cost: 400.000
ISK for BPC: 100.000.000
ISK/LP: 2125 (not counting materials or production profit)

Mineral price is around 152m (Jita sell order), making the ISK/LP ratio ~1740


Same calculation on the Rattlesnake at 480m gives LP value of 950 ISK/LP when not counting minerals or manufacturing profit.
With 152m in minerals we end up with ~750 ISK/LP for Guristas

Even the best case for Vindicator is well within the limits of what you can get in high sec, so its natural to assume Vindicator prices are not reflecting Serpentis LP value either.

EDIT:
Did a quick check on Snake Alpha/Beta and they give an ISK/LP ratio value of 3250/3492 when selling to buy orders and buying from sell orders. Way above even the free mineral Vindicator.

EDIT2: Calculated actual mineral price and changed around a bit in the post to reflect this. Still not calculating any profit from the actual manufacturing.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#16 - 2014-06-17 00:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:


Its not LP price that set the price, its drops vs demand

Little math:
Vindicator sell price: 950.000.000
LP cost: 400.000
ISK for BPC: 100.000.000
ISK/LP: 2125 (not counting materials or production profit)

Mineral price is around 152m (Jita sell order), making the ISK/LP ratio ~1740 ...



Not really, as for your values, 400.000*2125 isk +100.000.000 + some mineral costs equal about what the vindy costs on the market, it won't fall below that really, unless someone drops some stuff on the market just to get rid of it.

Same goes for the Nestor, 600.000 LP + 150.000.000 + minerals result in a minimum price of about 600.000*2.2 + 150.000.000 + 150.000.000 = 1,6 bil and surprise, that's where the price balanced itself out after not being use much (min value). Demand will increase that, but lack of it won't drop it under the current LP value which is the only one really influx. And since SoE LP where always high in demand due to probes and other profitable items and got pushed by the new hulls this won't be anytime soon.

If the Nestor isn't attractive for LP reimbursement then another item will be, the exchange will lessen and the nestor will be dropped, less availability pushes the price and it rises again.

Point, there is a minimum worth and it will stay that way, while being dependent on the LP worth. As a manufacturer mineral cost have a lesser impact then LP - at least as long as we talk faction and t1.

But lets not hi-jack the thread.
Aakkonen
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-06-17 00:19:07 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
it says in the description of why it doesnt have a covert ops cloak on it. Not even the black ops ships can use covert cloaks, so why should a nestor.


Read the full post my friend before your commenting. I said that Dont give it covert, just a BlOps speed bonus (300% as role bonus) so it dont have to be a cloaked bs that goes less than 30 in cloak.

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7

Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#18 - 2014-06-17 01:01:13 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Not really, as for your values, 400.000*2125 isk +100.000.000 + some mineral costs equal about what the vindy costs on the market, it won't fall below that really, unless someone drops some stuff on the market just to get rid of it.

Same goes for the Nestor, 600.000 LP + 150.000.000 + minerals result in a minimum price of about 600.000*2.2 + 150.000.000 + 150.000.000 = 1,6 bil and surprise, that's where the price balanced itself out after not being use much (min value). Demand will increase that, but lack of it won't drop it under the current LP value which is the only one really influx. And since SoE LP where always high in demand due to probes and other profitable items and got pushed by the new hulls this won't be anytime soon.

If the Nestor isn't attractive for LP reimbursement then another item will be, the exchange will lessen and the nestor will be dropped, less availability pushes the price and it rises again.

Point, there is a minimum worth and it will stay that way, while being dependent on the LP worth. As a manufacturer mineral cost have a lesser impact then LP - at least as long as we talk faction and t1.

But lets not hi-jack the thread.


Ofc the value calculated from sell price, minerals and LP store price will match pretty damn good with what it actualy cost on the market (the point about including sell price in the first place)

You can use the high sec store to calculate the LP value, but the fact is that you can get it for 400k LP + 100m in 0.0 just as the other pirate BS.
LP is NOT the only way to get these ships, and until CCP release numbers for how many ships come from drop vs LP store im going to assume that lower LP values than what you can get with 5min research is related to drops.

If you can show me proof that 600 or less is all you can get from Gurista LP, i will happily agree that drops dont mather. Until such a time, my claim still stands as drops do effect the price. If nobody wanted the Nestor it would cost 200m or less since BPC (or chip) can be gotten in drop. Fact is that people are WILLING to pay almost 50% more for the Nestor than the sell order price for any other pirate BS (not counting Barghest as its still new, and suffer the same screwed pricing as Nestor)
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2014-06-17 05:40:16 UTC
Before the Nestor gets cloak bonuses, I'd like to see the Black Ops get Cov Ops bonuses.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Arean Proktor
Chilli Joe
#20 - 2014-06-17 07:44:43 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Not really, as for your values, 400.000*2125 isk +100.000.000 + some mineral costs equal about what the vindy costs on the market, it won't fall below that really, unless someone drops some stuff on the market just to get rid of it.

Same goes for the Nestor, 600.000 LP + 150.000.000 + minerals result in a minimum price of about 600.000*2.2 + 150.000.000 + 150.000.000 = 1,6 bil and surprise, that's where the price balanced itself out after not being use much (min value). Demand will increase that, but lack of it won't drop it under the current LP value which is the only one really influx. And since SoE LP where always high in demand due to probes and other profitable items and got pushed by the new hulls this won't be anytime soon.

If the Nestor isn't attractive for LP reimbursement then another item will be, the exchange will lessen and the nestor will be dropped, less availability pushes the price and it rises again.

Point, there is a minimum worth and it will stay that way, while being dependent on the LP worth. As a manufacturer mineral cost have a lesser impact then LP - at least as long as we talk faction and t1.

But lets not hi-jack the thread.


Ofc the value calculated from sell price, minerals and LP store price will match pretty damn good with what it actualy cost on the market (the point about including sell price in the first place)

You can use the high sec store to calculate the LP value, but the fact is that you can get it for 400k LP + 100m in 0.0 just as the other pirate BS.
LP is NOT the only way to get these ships, and until CCP release numbers for how many ships come from drop vs LP store im going to assume that lower LP values than what you can get with 5min research is related to drops.

If you can show me proof that 600 or less is all you can get from Gurista LP, i will happily agree that drops dont mather. Until such a time, my claim still stands as drops do effect the price. If nobody wanted the Nestor it would cost 200m or less since BPC (or chip) can be gotten in drop. Fact is that people are WILLING to pay almost 50% more for the Nestor than the sell order price for any other pirate BS (not counting Barghest as its still new, and suffer the same screwed pricing as Nestor)


I strongly disagree. People will never ever sell a Nestro for 200mio - even if they got it from a drop - if the next lowest pricetag is 1,6bil. They will try to sell it for 1,599bil... Lowest pricetag is due to LP worth set to 1,6bil... ist a fact. Dont try to explain it with Magic, cause ist only maths.
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