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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bring me the head of a CFC titan pilot!

First post First post
Author
Big Lynx
#541 - 2014-06-17 11:11:55 UTC
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:
After reading this whole thread (which is basically the first time I ever heard about Gevlon and his holy crusade) I don't understand why anyone is giving this guy attention.


I advice you guys to keep that up. It seems that's Gevlon's one and only purpose in life. Everyone needs something to hold on in life. Gevlon's stage is EvE Online.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#542 - 2014-06-17 11:13:51 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Anyhow - I am going to help you out slightly, basic stats stuff.

To support the notion that a particular correlation is due to a causal relationship, one needs to propose a mechanism for the relationship.
So, by what mechanism do you think getting 200% reimbursement for our losses makes us quit the game? Is it because we get apathy from having too much money? Do our wallets get so large the client doesn't load?

Gonna need you to link A to B on this one and show how gaining money makes us leave.

You get 200% reimbursement for losing a JF to Marmite or a Golem to Mordus? Really? Because then I really have to start some clean alts and SA accounts?

By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#543 - 2014-06-17 11:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Anyhow - I am going to help you out slightly, basic stats stuff.

To support the notion that a particular correlation is due to a causal relationship, one needs to propose a mechanism for the relationship.
So, by what mechanism do you think getting 200% reimbursement for our losses makes us quit the game? Is it because we get apathy from having too much money? Do our wallets get so large the client doesn't load?

Gonna need you to link A to B on this one and show how gaining money makes us leave.

You get 200% reimbursement for losing a JF to Marmite or a Golem to Mordus? Really? Because then I really have to start some clean alts and SA accounts?

By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


You didn't limit your data to losses caused my highsec wars, in highsec, so you can't use the analysis you've done to support a conclusion that highsec wars have anything to do with it.

Still stats 101.

e: Though to be clear, your assertion that the data you are analyzing is an indicator of 'activity' is flawed as previously mentioned, so even if you did this, you're just concluding chocolate ice-cream causes murder.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Succendus Tegimens
Hey Fatty With Your Thick Face
#544 - 2014-06-17 11:50:07 UTC
This thread keeps delivering. I just can't stop reading it. Gevlon's tears and forum-warrioring and purposeful misconstruing of data is just too amazing. I couldn't be this bad at statistical analysis if I tried, but then again I actually know stats.

I wish this thread could be stickied.
Radric Davids
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#545 - 2014-06-17 12:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Radric Davids
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Anyhow - I am going to help you out slightly, basic stats stuff.

To support the notion that a particular correlation is due to a causal relationship, one needs to propose a mechanism for the relationship.
So, by what mechanism do you think getting 200% reimbursement for our losses makes us quit the game? Is it because we get apathy from having too much money? Do our wallets get so large the client doesn't load?

Gonna need you to link A to B on this one and show how gaining money makes us leave.

You get 200% reimbursement for losing a JF to Marmite or a Golem to Mordus? Really? Because then I really have to start some clean alts and SA accounts?

By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


do you realize how horribly you misinterpreted the correlation coefficient in your blog? hilarious.

The correlation coefficient is a measure of the degree to which the movement of two variables are associated, not the degree to which the dependent variable is explained by the independent variable.

You are confusion correlation coefficient, which is [cov(x,y)]/ SxSy

and a linear regression coefficient, which is a slope coefficient on the independent variable (period 1 kills-losses) on the dependent variable (period 2 kills-losses). The slope coefficient would indeed explain how much a net loss in period 1 influences period 2 net losses. It is calculated using the Ordinary Least Squares method, which results in a linear equation of:

Y = a +b*x + e

Y being period 2 kills-losses, X being period 1 kills-losses, b being the regression coefficient you wanted (% of period 2 kills-losses explained by period 1 kills-losses)

Quote:
It makes sense, those who were above average active in the first half, are likely remain above average. 0.55 is not a bad correlation, but far from perfect either. There must be another factor.


Yes, you are missing many, many factors including real life events, wars, in-game events, economic effects, recruitment/alliance switching, deployments, doctrines, logi/scouting/dictor use, and many others.

Your model, and mistaken as it is, is heavily influenced by exogenous factors. Your correlation coefficients don't prove anything, in fact anyone with a brain could have told you that you would have found a somewhat significant result. active players are likely to have been active 6 months ago. However, you cannot calculate the effect of losing a 1bil freighter based on your 'calculations'

Your regression would be incredibly oversimplified, had you correctly performed it. 6 months of pvp activity is influenced by many more factors than a single 1 billion isk freighter loss in a prior 6 month period. Any explanatory power you might have found if you had done this properly, would be a result of the fact that you have excluded countless exogenous variables. I believe if you properly conducted a linear regression, your F statistic and adjusted R^2 would reflect that.


Quote:
Since the variance of the total activity is larger than of the net ISK (5612M and 4729M), if you gank an 1B ship of a GSF member, he will have 1B*5.61/4.73*0.42 = 0.5B less activity (kills+losses) in the next half year on average than he'd have without the gank.


You used the fact that variance is greater than the sample mean (which actually just means that the data is highly varied) to explain that you could make the following calculation:

ganked ship * variance / mean * correlation coefficient = effect on next period kill-loss

What equation is that exactly? I actually lol'd at that. You calculated a correlation coefficient, not a linear regression. Regardless, what the hell is that equation? I'm still giggling. You need the slope coefficient to predict the effect of a current period loss in the next period. You did not perform a regression. The correlation coefficient does not work like this. This equation is not a thing


The higher the correlation coefficient that excel calculated for you (dont blindly use excel formulas unless you understand them to avoid embarrassment like this), the closer the two are to a perfect linear relationship. Logically, that sounds reasonable for your chosen variables.

What you tried to interpret that as, is the regression (or slope) coefficient. The slope coefficient is the extent to which the change in the expected value of period 2 kills-losses is explained by period 1 kills-losses. That is what you were going for, but they are very different in both calculation and interpretation.

Your calculation of the correlation coefficient explains precisely nothing. It has no weight over what you were trying to prove. Try again.

PS: de-whoring kills is ********. Basically only shows small gang and solo kills as a result. de-whored kills - losses will be VASTLY different than just kills-losses

TLRD: A correlation coefficient is not a regression coefficient. Try again with a linear regression and post the F test, T statistics, R^2, durbin watson statistic. You cannot predict the effect of a period 1 freighter gank on period 2 kills-losses using a correlation coefficient. Using excel formulas without understanding the statistic provides great laughs for everyone. Try googling regression vs correlation coefficient next time
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#546 - 2014-06-17 13:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Yes but he wants to use killboard data to prove Goons are breaking, so naturally there is only one variable that causes killboard changes - Goon logons.

I don't think you understand how imagining numbers to mean what you want them to mean works, friend.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#547 - 2014-06-17 13:29:03 UTC
To quote my stats prof

"Stats: The great archane art of saying anything you want with math."

Then he went on to talk about the Abe Lincoln internet thing.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#548 - 2014-06-17 13:36:47 UTC
Titan.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#549 - 2014-06-17 13:38:11 UTC
I really think y'all are getting trolled by this Gevlon character. No one can possibly be that stupid.




... right?
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#550 - 2014-06-17 13:47:54 UTC
Danks wrote:
I really think y'all are getting trolled by this Gevlon character. No one can possibly be that stupid.




... right?


That's what I thought. Then again, at least Mr Gobs managed to convince me of one thing in this thread.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#551 - 2014-06-17 13:49:28 UTC
Danks wrote:
I really think y'all are getting trolled by this Gevlon character. No one can possibly be that stupid.




... right?



I would like to think that.... but the extent he has went to... dedicating a blog... multiple forum pages... a failcrusade in hisec against nullsec sov corps....

He is trolling himself...

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#552 - 2014-06-17 14:14:05 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

You get 200% reimbursement for losing a JF to Marmite or a Golem to Mordus? Really? Because then I really have to start some clean alts and SA accounts?


You can spend all the :10bux: you want, you still won't get in. No matter how many disguises you wear, we'll still know its you. It'd be a matter of hours before you'd post a graph about something absurd and the jig would be up.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


I find this highly unlikely.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#553 - 2014-06-17 14:33:06 UTC
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:
After reading this whole thread (which is basically the first time I ever heard about Gevlon and his holy crusade) I don't understand why anyone is giving this guy attention. Even the entertainment value wears off quickly because there is so much constant bullshit to read and the blog is even sadder (and a little bit hillarious, but mostly sad) :(
It can still be fun but you do have to just skim read. "blahditty blah goons dying blahditty blah ragequit, blahditty blah I'm nearly poor from paying for wardecs". But you're right, it's gets boring quick.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Maichin Civire
#554 - 2014-06-17 14:37:43 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


Isn't this like it should be great surprise and huge loss for GSF/CFC with your monday post?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#555 - 2014-06-17 14:39:42 UTC
Maichin Civire wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


Isn't this like it should be great surprise and huge loss for GSF/CFC with your monday post?
He say this kinda think all the time "OMIGOSH! Amazeballs post coming" *posting of the same stuff he's posted in every post for the last year with a graph in a slightly different colour*

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Radric Davids
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#556 - 2014-06-17 14:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Radric Davids
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maichin Civire wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
By the way on Thursday I'll write something really nice about GSF. Honestly!


Isn't this like it should be great surprise and huge loss for GSF/CFC with your monday post?
He say this kinda think all the time "OMIGOSH! Amazeballs post coming" *posting of the same stuff he's posted in every post for the last year with a graph in a slightly different colour*


Oh look, i found an excel formula called correlation! Now i will show the big bad goons! Gosh, I'm so smart. Those dumb socials don't even know what correlation is! I'll show them who's autistic
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#557 - 2014-06-17 15:34:52 UTC
I have done some advanced maths to show how Gevlon is going broke.

Gevlon's Wallet - grrr spending = Gevlon's smaller wallet

Now I don't have no fancy-pants excel like all those high-tier bloggers out there, but I have made a graph of Gevlon's ISK.

Fig 1. - http://i.imgur.com/hqfGjeV.png

Part A - throwing money at marmite / lemmings
Part B - dropped 20bil to Chribba for his Titan thingy
Part C - the blog-rampantly-as-my-funds-empty-phase.

thank you all for your time, please RT and spread the word #gevlonfinances

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#558 - 2014-06-18 04:46:04 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
I have done some advanced maths to show how Gevlon is going broke.
Gevlon's Wallet - grrr spending = Gevlon's smaller wallet

I have to ruin your dreams. I never spent any part of my capital. I spent my weekly income every week. I have exactly the same amount as assets as I had before the project. I merely didn't accumulate any more, as any profit went (and keeps going until Goonies surrender or destroyed) into the GRR project.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#559 - 2014-06-18 04:51:59 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
I have done some advanced maths to show how Gevlon is going broke.
Gevlon's Wallet - grrr spending = Gevlon's smaller wallet

I have to ruin your dreams. I never spent any part of my capital. I spent my weekly income every week. I have exactly the same amount as assets as I had before the project. I merely didn't accumulate any more, as any profit went (and keeps going until Goonies surrender or destroyed) into the GRR project.



These are the tactics of the lie.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2014-06-18 05:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pete Butcher
From the latest blog post I can see Gevlon is in the denial phase. Hiding posts here so he won't see people proving him wrong in every aspect. Small suggestion: closing your eyes doesn't make the world go away. Absurd notions are still absurd and other people can see it.

PS. Gevlon, if you post an idea on your blog, you can at least give credit to the author.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool