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[Crius] Starbase feedback

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#61 - 2014-06-12 17:51:13 UTC
Matthew wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.


Having one part of your corporation able to tax another part of it is actually incredibly useful for implementing separation of duties within a corporation.

For example, under the current system you can nominate your starbase maintenance team to use the master wallet for all starbase expenses. The starbase team then sets their desired slot fees based on running costs of the starbase.

A different wallet division is set up for use by the blueprint copying team. The blueprint copying team places their jobs into the starbase lab arrays, and the appropriate slot fees are automatically deducted from the blueprint copying wallet division and paid into the master wallet division.

When the starbase maintenance team needs to buy more fuel, they are able to use the slot fees that have accumulated in the master wallet to do so. It is then very easy to see whether the takings are sufficient to run the starbase or not, and to manage the funding of the starbase separately from the profitability of the blueprint copying.

Without the ability to set taxes at a starbase, maintaining this separation of duties would require a significant amount of manual accounting work to calculate the appropriate apportionment of starbase operating costs and manually transfer the appropriate amounts of ISK between wallet divisions.


You do realize you are proposing transferring money from the master wallet into a division to pay for fees which go into the master wallet, right?

Dizzy yet? I know your isk is. Because you're washing it like a pro. Not to mention the risk of corp theft.

You can set the taxes to 0, give access to a single empty wallet division to everyone using the arrays thus eliminating the opportunity for theft and skimming, and then pay for POS fuel out of the master wallet (or another POS-related division for that matter) anyway.

tl;dr: There is no way to make money from POS array fees. The net is always zero.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#62 - 2014-06-12 17:52:59 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Cpt King wrote:
Whats the advantage because Pos or Station Producing / Reasearch for the Holders of the Station in 0.0? So the holders are not able to limit the usage or place some Tax for the Corp on the Reasearch / Production slots?


You will be able to tax industry jobs in player outposts, we just need to add the bit of UI for configuring the tax rate.



Apologies if this is answered already, I'm a page behind.

Will we have the ability to set the tax rate on job install costs at POS's as well? I'm not sure if that just applied to outposts or not.

Would REALLY like to have this


Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.

Personal jobs at a POS may come with a POS rework in the future.


If the tax is taken from one wallet and put into another it DOES make sense. Eg, industry guys putting money into the master wallet, through tax, to help pay their bit for the fuel.


Dude, they aren't paying from their personal wallet. The fees come out of the corp wallet.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Kithran
#63 - 2014-06-12 18:15:45 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

You will be able to tax industry jobs in player outposts, we just need to add the bit of UI for configuring the tax rate.



Apologies if this is answered already, I'm a page behind.

Will we have the ability to set the tax rate on job install costs at POS's as well? I'm not sure if that just applied to outposts or not.

Would REALLY like to have this


Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.

Personal jobs at a POS may come with a POS rework in the future.


If the tax is taken from one wallet and put into another it DOES make sense. Eg, industry guys putting money into the master wallet, through tax, to help pay their bit for the fuel.


Dude, they aren't paying from their personal wallet. The fees come out of the corp wallet.


To illustrate how it would be used (and how I have personally seen it used in the past)

You set up a wallet division called research.

You give the people doing research access to the wallet division research - this means they can put in money when they want to do research.

You set a cost for the research (current process - would be a tax rate under new method).

When someone wants to do research they put the bpo in a lab, they put the isk into the research wallet, they start research.

At present with this arrangement the cost goes into the master wallet, it can then be used to pay for say fuel. What people are suggesting is you should be able to set tax rates on your own pos which would mean the tax part of the cost of a job would go into the master wallet in the same way costs do now.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2014-06-12 18:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Max Kolonko wrote:
So what that they have alts in there? does those alt can do industry? Maybe some do but than again those would be with the poses already setted up. Otherwise when You escape from war You cant just apply with Your industry guys to Your other corp due to war cool-down (you cant join other corp if you felt corp during war for a week or two - cant remember exactly)

i'd forgotten about that, you're smarter than i am Sad

e: actually i think the mechanic is 'if you leave a wardecced corp you can't rejoin the same corp' so that's not stopping the alt corp thing
Icarus Narcissus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-06-12 22:03:13 UTC
In regards to the changes to blueprints not being able to be researched, copied, or manufactured from a station in a POS, how do you foresee corps that had offered a shared locked blueprint pool to their membership operating moving forward?

Example:

Quote:
"Indy Corp A" has a corp hangar in station designated for lockeddown BPOs and a POS for copying and research in the same system

Members of "Indy Corp A" are able to utilize this BPO library for copy jobs, as well as to contribute to ME/PE (now called ML, TL) research to benefit the collective library using the facilities on the POS, this is in fact one of the largest draws for being part of "Indy Corp A" as the corporation has amassed a tens-of-billions of ISK blueprint collection, far beyond the capabilities of any single one of its members.

Following the Cirius patch, members of "Indy Corp A" will no longer be able to do copying or research in the POS without the blueprints becoming unlocked and moved to the POS, and therefore vulnerable to the theft the lockdown system currently prevents. They can still build off the BPOs if the station the BPOs are held in has manufacturing facilities, but they are unable to make copies and then produce goods in a different location of their choosing if the system is overcrowded or unable to build the goods in question.


While I imagine there are very few industrial conglomerates similar to the hypothetical "Indy Corp A" mentioned, they do exist and this patch could end up disrupting their benefits severely.

These types corporations will have to locate solely into stations that have a full set of facilities (ML, TL, Copy, and Manufacturing), but they, of course, lose the benefits of having a POS, such as the reduced research costs and times. This isn't such a concern other than raising a use case that may not have been considered previously where "Increase Risk for Increased Reward" works well for the individual when they are in a one-person (although multi-pilot) corporation, but causes possibly undue penalties to actual multi-player industrialist corporations built for purposes of inter-player cooperation and/or helping new industrialists learn and grow in an assisted environment.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2014-06-12 23:30:57 UTC
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
In regards to the changes to blueprints not being able to be researched, copied, or manufactured from a station in a POS, how do you foresee corps that had offered a shared locked blueprint pool to their membership operating moving forward?


The ones that don't trust their members or are unable to defend their POS will simply research and copy in (now slotless) NPC stations.

Blueprint access rights are less of a problem with industry itself and more to do with corp roles + POSes which if you saw our roadmap from Fanfest you will know is next on our radar to look at.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#67 - 2014-06-13 08:52:41 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
In regards to the changes to blueprints not being able to be researched, copied, or manufactured from a station in a POS, how do you foresee corps that had offered a shared locked blueprint pool to their membership operating moving forward?


The ones that don't trust their members or are unable to defend their POS will simply research and copy in (now slotless) NPC stations.

Blueprint access rights are less of a problem with industry itself and more to do with corp roles + POSes which if you saw our roadmap from Fanfest you will know is next on our radar to look at.


To work from a BPO you only need "query" access to it. put your BPOs into a devision your minions don't have take access to and your BPOs should be save. Accept from director level theft. Its not as save as lock down but should work for some cases.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#68 - 2014-06-13 08:59:33 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
The ones that don't trust their members or are unable to defend their POS will simply research and copy in (now slotless) NPC stations.


I think you're deliberately confusing a small indy corp with a nullsec alliance or RvB.

The notion of defending a POS is nonsense - If it's online, and armed, then the only groups liable to attack it are those with sufficiently overwhelming force that it's reinforced within half an hour.

That RF can take place at ANY time of the day.

Are you seriously suggesting that to take advantage of researching in POS towers that small indy corps now need enough members to put up an around-the-clock defensive fleet?

What about smaller still, one or two man corps that use industry to fund other things, like PvP? Is it a case of:

"Hey, sorry. We here at CCP think that EVE is serious business and you can forget about that spontaneous weekend trip away with your wife because when you get back your BPOs are all gone."
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2014-06-13 09:06:30 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
The ones that don't trust their members or are unable to defend their POS will simply research and copy in (now slotless) NPC stations.


I think you're deliberately confusing a small indy corp with a nullsec alliance or RvB.

The notion of defending a POS is nonsense - If it's online, and armed, then the only groups liable to attack it are those with sufficiently overwhelming force that it's reinforced within half an hour.

That RF can take place at ANY time of the day.

Are you seriously suggesting that to take advantage of researching in POS towers that small indy corps now need enough members to put up an around-the-clock defensive fleet?

What about smaller still, one or two man corps that use industry to fund other things, like PvP? Is it a case of:

"Hey, sorry. We here at CCP think that EVE is serious business and you can forget about that spontaneous weekend trip away with your wife because when you get back your BPOs are all gone."


For a highsec POS at least you will get a wardec notice period before being at risk, but like I said, small corps will just use NPC stations. With the removal of slots and system wide cost scaling this isn't as big a deal as it used to be with slot constraints.

Those that want to take the risk, enjoy the POS bonuses. The choice is yours.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2014-06-13 09:09:40 UTC
Chanina wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
In regards to the changes to blueprints not being able to be researched, copied, or manufactured from a station in a POS, how do you foresee corps that had offered a shared locked blueprint pool to their membership operating moving forward?


The ones that don't trust their members or are unable to defend their POS will simply research and copy in (now slotless) NPC stations.

Blueprint access rights are less of a problem with industry itself and more to do with corp roles + POSes which if you saw our roadmap from Fanfest you will know is next on our radar to look at.


To work from a BPO you only need "query" access to it. put your BPOs into a devision your minions don't have take access to and your BPOs should be save. Accept from director level theft. Its not as save as lock down but should work for some cases.


Correct, and IMO this is a lot nicer to work with than blueprint locking but as you said requires you to trust your directors.

Blueprint lock down, roles + division access at POSes are all on our longer term roadmap to review however because the current state of affairs could be a lot better.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#71 - 2014-06-13 09:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
but like I said, small corps will just use NPC stations.


Fair enough, but to get the point home... can one of the database guys tell us how big your average indy corp (those running > 100 jobs per month) is?

I'm guessing it's about... 10.

These particular changes just leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth. They remind me of when CCP decided to remove higher-end anomalies from 90% of nullsec and kidney-punched every small nullsec alliance out there.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#72 - 2014-06-13 09:43:41 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
but like I said, small corps will just use NPC stations.


Fair enough, but to get the point home... can one of the database guys tell us how big your average indy corp (those running > 100 jobs per month) is?

I'm guessing it's about... 10.

These particular changes just leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth. They remind me of when CCP decided to remove higher-end anomalies from 90% of nullsec and kidney-punched every small nullsec alliance out there.


Just ran the numbers on this, it's actually higher than you think.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Careby
#73 - 2014-06-13 10:09:47 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
...but like I said, small corps will just use NPC stations. With the removal of slots and system wide cost scaling this isn't as big a deal as it used to be with slot constraints.

Those that want to take the risk, enjoy the POS bonuses. The choice is yours.

I may have missed a detail or two, but isn't there going to be a problem with the number of available office slots at stations with research?

Currently a small corp uses a POS for research because of limited station research slots, and can locate their office at any station in the system. If those corps move their research from POS to station post-Crius, it seems to me they will have to locate their office at a station that has research. And because of system-wide cost scaling, there seems to be little incentive to manufacture at stations without research. Which would seem to lead everyone to congregate at the research stations, which would then lead to high office rent at those stations. This might make it very expensive to run corporation research jobs.

A large corporation doing research may have no problem with high office rent. An individual doing research doesn't need to rent an office. But a small corporation which does need a corporation hangar for blueprint research may find the office cost difficult to bear. Are there any planned changes to the number of available offices and/or the rent structure? And if office rent will not be an issue, why will anyone use a non-research station for industry?
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#74 - 2014-06-13 10:10:18 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Just ran the numbers on this, it's actually higher than you think.


Thanks for running those - Is it something you can share? It would go a long way to abating the fear that these changes would be such a large barrier to entry for new corporations. Not in terms of slots, but in terms of new groups only getting half the research speed etc.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#75 - 2014-06-13 10:19:01 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Looks like the (hisec) Repro Array is misbehaving.


Skills --> 5/5/5 Refining, Refinery Efficiency, Veldspar Processing
Batch --> 1 x veldspar (100 units)
Edit -- oh, have the 4% implant too.

POS Result -- 215
Raw Spreadsheet Result (POS) -- 311.25

For reference, stations seem to be OK:
Tax --> 5% (as listed in game -- standings actually bring this down to approximately 3% based on real losses)
Overall -> "70% yield" in station, according to ingame repro window

Station Result -- 289
Raw Spreadsheet Result (Station) -- 289.67


Yes indeed, Reprocessing Arrays aren't taking skills into account yet.

Aww Cry

Well, at least you're aware then Smile.

Any timeline for kicking the POS code into behaving ... or just "soon(tm)"?


I could say "during the next few weeks" but I'm not sure that would help P
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#76 - 2014-06-13 10:19:36 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
(updated copy of a post I made in the reprocessing feedback thread)

Compression Array Attributes
Three entries that may be obsolete/wrong

Refining Yield Multiplier (0.55x), Operational Duration (10.00s) and Restricted to Security Level Less Than (1)

Multiplier is x 0.52 in case the attribute is used that way. Reprocessing is instant. I Successfully anchored/put online Reprocessing and Compression Arrays in Pator, which is true 1.0.

Tower Anchoring
I also anchor a tower in Lustrevik which is one of the restricted systems, at least for PI.


Thanks for spotting this.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#77 - 2014-06-13 10:23:04 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
A little disappointed with the following; I set up a POS (first one ever) and installed a Compression Array and a Reprocessing Array to test how they work.

Took some Veldspar ore to the compressor and it compressed instantly (after working out the none intuitive drag/drop/must get closer to activate storage). Carted the compressed ore back to a station to reprocess it and was presented with a very easy to use double window with tool tips explaining what skills were giving what bonuses, amount lost, amount as tax etc, loved it.

The next batch I dropped into the reprocessing array at the pos, right clicked, select reprocess, and done.... What the heck no window giving details, nothing.

So is this something in the pipeline or do we have to endure this none intuitive basic window thing?


POS code is creepy and messy. Do not speak of it.

I'm willing to forgive the lack of interface or massive updating surrounding POS's in the knowledge that their overhaul is actually in the pipeline and that wasting time on it now is probably not best idea.


That's exactly why we couldn't attach the new Reprocessing UI to Starbases (for now). When CCP Tuxford had a glimpse at the code he fainted, begging for mercy, asking us to spare him because he has a family that he needs to feed and all the usual stuff.

Poor thing.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2014-06-13 10:33:55 UTC
Careby wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
...but like I said, small corps will just use NPC stations. With the removal of slots and system wide cost scaling this isn't as big a deal as it used to be with slot constraints.

Those that want to take the risk, enjoy the POS bonuses. The choice is yours.

I may have missed a detail or two, but isn't there going to be a problem with the number of available office slots at stations with research?

Currently a small corp uses a POS for research because of limited station research slots, and can locate their office at any station in the system. If those corps move their research from POS to station post-Crius, it seems to me they will have to locate their office at a station that has research. And because of system-wide cost scaling, there seems to be little incentive to manufacture at stations without research. Which would seem to lead everyone to congregate at the research stations, which would then lead to high office rent at those stations. This might make it very expensive to run corporation research jobs.

A large corporation doing research may have no problem with high office rent. An individual doing research doesn't need to rent an office. But a small corporation which does need a corporation hangar for blueprint research may find the office cost difficult to bear. Are there any planned changes to the number of available offices and/or the rent structure? And if office rent will not be an issue, why will anyone use a non-research station for industry?



This is a very valid concern and something we will keep a close eye on.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-06-13 11:09:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,
  • New corporations have to wait 7 days before anchoring Control Towers


    • What is the intended purpose for this?


    It's to provide a waiting time when receiving a war declaration before forming a new corporation and moving all the Starbase assets there.


    We keep various single member alt accounts created, primarily for hauler pilots. And we are wormhole corps who care less about wardecs than most.

    This change will prevent the new and disorganized from being able to set up towers, but will have little effect on suitably knowledgeable veterans. That might be a desirable effect.

    http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
    TigerXtrm
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #80 - 2014-06-13 11:39:18 UTC
    I anchored and onlined a couple of Component Assembly Arrays but I can't seem to find them in the list of manufacturing lines. Bug or am I doing something wrong?

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