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[Crius] Research feedback

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Chic Botany
Doomheim
#101 - 2014-06-12 19:38:54 UTC
ok, after a quick play tonight.

All station research from my personal hangar.

I tried copy Optimal Range Disruptor Script BPO 1 copy 2 runs per copy, although on the window it doesn't show any progress in status, just 00:00:00:00 even though there were 6 minutes to run.
When I click on the job in the main window where it says Time Left it shows 00:00:00:00

Tried to copy a Capital Cargo Bay BPO
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
Insuficcient funds to pay job cost
Error. ACCOUNT_FUNDS (0.0, 410)

Job should cost 410 isk to run, I've got 147mil in wallet

I've just noticed after a bit more digging, the Optimal range disruptor script copy job didn't cost me anything, not a single isk Lol

It looks like any job I have to pay for, it doesn't think I've got enough isk.
Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC
The Legends In The Game
#102 - 2014-06-12 19:51:52 UTC
Personal jobs doesn't seem to work atm., or at least cannot be started.
Corporation jobs at least can be now started, but there are few bugs with the timer staying on 00:00:00:00.
peroxide chase
Os Group
#103 - 2014-06-12 19:59:47 UTC
T2 BPO's are still really strange.

IE my ishtar bp now has tons of mineral requirements that never existed on TQ, as well as all other material requirements are roughly 35% higher than TQ currently is.
Berserker II BP also showing new additional minerals along with 425mm rail II bp. Ammo BP's dont seem to show new mineral requirements but all t2 BP's are showing a 35% mineral/component increase across the board(drone, ship, module, ammo), This is down from the 50% they were showing on 6/10.

SS from 6/10
SS from 6/12

Copying of T2 cruiser hulls is still limited to 1 run per copy with modules & drones being limited to 10 runs per copy, is this intended ? being limited to making 1 run copies is a big enough nerf to stop people from copying them, however the Copy time is above current TQ production time as well.
Calara
Skilled Refugees
#104 - 2014-06-12 20:55:02 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Does that mean that, exempting decryptor effects, it is no longer possible to get multi-run T2 BPCs from invention? Currently (Kronos) max-run T1 module BPCs yield 10-run T2 BPCs. If invention only yields 1-run T2 BPCs then there will be *many* more invention jobs in Crius. Am I misunderstanding something?

MDD


All invention jobs will spit out a max-run blueprint. Sorry, should've mentioned that, lots of plates spinning today :)


This doesn't seem to be working right now. I was able to run an invention job for a Nanofiber Internal Structure, but the NIS 2 BPC that was produced has 1 run out of a max of 10.

Is that a bug, or has the max-run T2 blueprints from invention been changed?

Paying more attention to the invention job creation process, I see that the T2 NIS BPC pictured to the right says "RUNS: 1" under it. I can't find any way to change that value.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#105 - 2014-06-12 21:07:55 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Does that mean that, exempting decryptor effects, it is no longer possible to get multi-run T2 BPCs from invention? Currently (Kronos) max-run T1 module BPCs yield 10-run T2 BPCs. If invention only yields 1-run T2 BPCs then there will be *many* more invention jobs in Crius. Am I misunderstanding something?

MDD


All invention jobs will spit out a max-run blueprint. Sorry, should've mentioned that, lots of plates spinning today :)


Do you mean this as in T2 BPO info for max runs or the current max outputs (10% of T2 BPO's). Eg, would an Anshar BPC be 10 runs?
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#106 - 2014-06-12 23:24:39 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Does that mean that, exempting decryptor effects, it is no longer possible to get multi-run T2 BPCs from invention? Currently (Kronos) max-run T1 module BPCs yield 10-run T2 BPCs. If invention only yields 1-run T2 BPCs then there will be *many* more invention jobs in Crius. Am I misunderstanding something?

MDD


All invention jobs will spit out a max-run blueprint. Sorry, should've mentioned that, lots of plates spinning today :)


Do you mean this as in T2 BPO info for max runs or the current max outputs (10% of T2 BPO's). Eg, would an Anshar BPC be 10 runs?


We are still looking at this but I can confirm the output runs on invented blueprints is not correct. Will get this fixed next week.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#107 - 2014-06-12 23:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: asteroidjas
edit...nm...i found my answer
Greybuilt
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#108 - 2014-06-13 00:16:55 UTC
I must be doing something wrong: I'm trying to do TE research on a Charon BPO that's already at 16% and i'm being told it will take 102:23:46:53 and cost 9,814,311,019. That's 9 Billion ISK....

Is this by design, a mistake, do I need to go to POS or ??
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#109 - 2014-06-13 00:46:38 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research time has some confirmed math kinks, looking into them.

Better error messages will ofc be forthcoming!

Quote:
We are still looking at this but I can confirm the output runs on invented blueprints is not correct. Will get this fixed next week.


Sooo.....hows that inbeded QA working for you guys? Did nobody even think to attempt a research job before they called this thing ready? How does this stuff get past QA anyways?
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-06-13 02:12:53 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research time has some confirmed math kinks, looking into them.

Better error messages will ofc be forthcoming!

Quote:
We are still looking at this but I can confirm the output runs on invented blueprints is not correct. Will get this fixed next week.


Sooo.....hows that inbeded QA working for you guys? Did nobody even think to attempt a research job before they called this thing ready? How does this stuff get past QA anyways?



Hey dude, check the attitude. TEST SERVER!

No one said it was ready. If you don't want to play with the beta wait for it to go live on TQ.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#111 - 2014-06-13 02:47:45 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

We are still looking at this but I can confirm the output runs on invented blueprints is not correct. Will get this fixed next week.

Forgive the bluntness...but this (after all the previous "Yeah that is broken, we'll look into it" replies) begs the question...

What of the research portion of this new mess IS correct? What is the point of putting something on the test server that hasn't even been partially tested by the teams involved. Research times are wrong, copy costs are wrong, invention stuffs are wrong..ect...

I understand it is a "test server"....but is that really supposed to mean that nothing has been tested at all prior to it being thrown onto SiSi? Because when this happens...we have to wait yet another week, in the already short time left, to find the actual bugs related to this massive change.

That is my point. In most workplaces these type of deployments would be worthy of disciplinary action. (maybe that is what part of the housecleaning was?)

And no, Beta testing CCP's products is not related to SiSi....TQ gets more than its fair share of fail deployments that are the beta versions of the concepts CCP is trying for. (really amazed and thankful they actually thought about deploying this two weeks ago)
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#112 - 2014-06-13 09:24:44 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

We are still looking at this but I can confirm the output runs on invented blueprints is not correct. Will get this fixed next week.

Forgive the bluntness...but this (after all the previous "Yeah that is broken, we'll look into it" replies) begs the question...

What of the research portion of this new mess IS correct? What is the point of putting something on the test server that hasn't even been partially tested by the teams involved. Research times are wrong, copy costs are wrong, invention stuffs are wrong..ect...

I understand it is a "test server"....but is that really supposed to mean that nothing has been tested at all prior to it being thrown onto SiSi? Because when this happens...we have to wait yet another week, in the already short time left, to find the actual bugs related to this massive change.

That is my point. In most workplaces these type of deployments would be worthy of disciplinary action. (maybe that is what part of the housecleaning was?)

And no, Beta testing CCP's products is not related to SiSi....TQ gets more than its fair share of fail deployments that are the beta versions of the concepts CCP is trying for. (really amazed and thankful they actually thought about deploying this two weeks ago)


We actually had most of the defects already reported internally but just hadn't got around to fixing them yet. Now we could have kept it all internal for another few weeks while we fix it up, but SiSi was made available after Kronos and the build was stable enough to safely deploy so we put it up to get some early impressions.

Feedback so far has been fantastic and we are rethinking some of our original assumptions. It is simply not worth waiting longer before getting this feedback IMO.

If this still doesn't agree with you however, then we'll just see you on TQ on the 22nd July Big smile

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2014-06-13 09:59:55 UTC
I actually think it's pretty worrying that you initially planned to release this, in its grand buggyness state, with Kronos. You know, almost 2 weeks ago. I mean, if not even the values of things are correct on SiSi NOW, how did you guys ever expect to get this working properly in time for Kronos? It kinda baffles my mind, really.

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DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-06-13 10:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: DoToo Foo
TigerXtrm wrote:
I actually think it's pretty worrying that you initially planned to release this, in its grand buggyness state, with Kronos. You know, almost 2 weeks ago. I mean, if not even the values of things are correct on SiSi NOW, how did you guys ever expect to get this working properly in time for Kronos? It kinda baffles my mind, really.


Parkinson's Law : Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.

Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

Keep these two laws in mind, then consider : How should a project manager attempt to get anything released?

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#115 - 2014-06-13 10:26:37 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
I actually think it's pretty worrying that you initially planned to release this, in its grand buggyness state, with Kronos. You know, almost 2 weeks ago. I mean, if not even the values of things are correct on SiSi NOW, how did you guys ever expect to get this working properly in time for Kronos? It kinda baffles my mind, really.


We originally planned to release this with Kronos about 6 months ago. It wasn't ready so our plans changed.

The scope of this release makes it an almost impossible task to predict how long it will actually take with any accuracy, hence the recent change in release model which allows us to work on something and choose the release date when we are much closer to finishing.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Neo Hutt
#116 - 2014-06-13 11:06:19 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
I actually think it's pretty worrying that you initially planned to release this, in its grand buggyness state, with Kronos. You know, almost 2 weeks ago. I mean, if not even the values of things are correct on SiSi NOW, how did you guys ever expect to get this working properly in time for Kronos? It kinda baffles my mind, really.


We originally planned to release this with Kronos about 6 months ago. It wasn't ready so our plans changed.

The scope of this release makes it an almost impossible task to predict how long it will actually take with any accuracy, hence the recent change in release model which allows us to work on something and choose the release date when we are much closer to finishing.

I have serious doubt that you guys will manage to pull out a working version until Crius is planed to be released. What we have on sisi now is not even a pre alpha release, there is almost nothing to test yet.
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#117 - 2014-06-13 13:03:11 UTC
Just finished some invention jobs, and I seem to have been quite unlucky, none of them was a success. I never liked the way invention results were presented in the old system, but no feedback at all whether an invention was successful or not is just as bad.
So, a way to see the result of an invention would be good, either visually on the delivery button or the job window, even if it's just a "success"/"failure".
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#118 - 2014-06-13 13:29:14 UTC
Selaria Unbertable wrote:
Just finished some invention jobs, and I seem to have been quite unlucky, none of them was a success. I never liked the way invention results were presented in the old system, but no feedback at all whether an invention was successful or not is just as bad.
So, a way to see the result of an invention would be good, either visually on the delivery button or the job window, even if it's just a "success"/"failure".


Yes we are about to add some indication of success / fail when you click deliver and will include that in the job history too.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#119 - 2014-06-13 13:31:32 UTC
Selaria Unbertable wrote:
Just finished some invention jobs, and I seem to have been quite unlucky, none of them was a success. I never liked the way invention results were presented in the old system, but no feedback at all whether an invention was successful or not is just as bad.
So, a way to see the result of an invention would be good, either visually on the delivery button or the job window, even if it's just a "success"/"failure".


Fear not, this is something we are working on at the moment. Cool

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#120 - 2014-06-13 13:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Regarding the state of the build:
- This is the earliest something this large has been on SiSi in a very long time. As Nullabor said, SiSi was made available almost immediately after Kronos, and we wanted to start collecting public feedback as fast as possible
- The code running on SiSi is our nightly development build. It's not a sanitized, polished setup, it's literally "what we did yesterday". Internal testing is happening in parallel to stuff being deployed onto SiSi
- We are (I believe!) still comfortably confident that everything will be ready in time for the scheduled Crius release; a lot of things are broken right now but they are in general superficially broken and comparatively easy to fix. We don't have any big, risky features to implement or fixes to work on.
- The proof will of course be in the pudding, but given the current situation we do not feel it is productive to spend time discussing whether or not we will be ready in five weeks in these threads, so we ask that you focus your feedback on the specifics of what features are working how on SiSi right now rather than expressing your professional judgements as to the likely state of our codebase in five weeks' time. Thanks :)