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[Crius] Industry Landscape feedback

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2014-06-12 10:11:03 UTC
shaun 27 wrote:
Will you need to have max run bpcs for max run on invention as atm i cant seem to invent or copy anything. If you do need max runs will you look at copying time because for instance (@ pos with maxed skills) copying 1 curator 200 run is like 18 hours per bpc.

Invention error @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_TYPE
The job cost has changed
Error.FACILITY_TYPE (23564,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (22, 25)

Copying error on both new and researched blueprints @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed
Error.MISMATCH_COST (3976, 3890)

Also as i stated in a previous post here regarding tax ie system cost index. Will i be able to spam all the moons in a none system station to keep this cost down and stop other people raising it Or is this a constant price and isnt effected by amount of industry related jobs, Because you said that theirs no tax at pos's and i kinda see this as tax tbh. I assume this would be 0 in player owned systems and lower in low sec but shouldn't corps with standings towards a certain faction get a reduction on this cost if it is the case that pos's get charged system cost index (shouldnt be better then low sec or 0.0 though even with high standings)

shaun


- Don't need max runs, only need one run per job
- Nothing to stop you spamming moons except other players
- We have two distinct things, the base workforce cost which everyone pays and which scales on activity per system, and the NPC station tax which is levied on top of that but skipped in starbases and configurable in player-owned stations
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#62 - 2014-06-12 10:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Imagine a scenario:
I am a big industrialist, like to do things properly (=perfect).
I focus on the production of a single item type, consider job installation costs, teams etc.
Of course, I want to manufacture in a starbase to get the small material bonus.
Now, I can reduce job installation costs by the use of multiple arrays (max. roughly 25% if I cram as many arrays as possible into a large POS).
Of course I am very spacerich and thinking long-term, so initial investments don't bother me. And I laugh about risks ofc. :-D
Slightly simplified, I have the following choices:

a) Small tower, pay around 100mISK per month in fuel, get about 6% job installation cost reduction (~25% max bonus, ~25% thereof will fit into a small tower)
b) Medium tower, 200mISK fuel, 12% discount
c) large tower, 400mISK fuel, 24% discount

As you can see, all POSes have the same throughput due to no slot limits.
So I will always choose a) UNLESS 6% discount save me more than 100mISK per month, in which case I will always choose c).
If I need to save 100mISK with the 6% discount, my monthly job installation costs will have to be higher than 1.666bil ISK.

It is assumed in the dev blog that typically the job installation costs range from 1-5% of the value of produced goods.
Assume I am in a somewhat heavy duty industrial hub since I want that special team that saves some material.
Normally I would pay around 8% of my produced goods value as job installation cost.

Which means I need to produce 20.8333 bil ISK in goods per month before a large POS can even start to become profitable.

Conclusion:
Unless I am using like 10 toons 24/7 on the same POS on the same type of goods, I will always choose setup a).

Although I really like the idea of a stacking bonus, I suspect the current proposal to be a too weak incentive to put up large towers - also quite far away from making this a "meaningful" choice in practically all relevant scenarios.
I therefore expect corresponding effects on fuel and PI demand in general.

Anything I missed?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-06-12 10:26:19 UTC
The part where you may want to have a large tower that is easier to defend.

You may have to defend it because you need to put your bpos in there in order to benefit from the bonus.

Oh, and those 20b a month. Not really a problem, I go through this per week. However, my products vary quite a bit, so I'm probably gonna need more than one type of array
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2014-06-12 10:34:16 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Imagine a scenario:
I am a big industrialist, like to do things properly (=perfect).
I focus on the production of a single item type, consider job installation costs, teams etc.
Of course, I want to manufacture in a starbase to get the small material bonus.
Now, I can reduce job installation costs by the use of multiple arrays (max. roughly 25% if I cram as many arrays as possible into a large POS).
Of course I am very spacerich and thinking long-term, so initial investments don't bother me. And I laugh about risks ofc. :-D
Slightly simplified, I have the following choices:

a) Small tower, pay around 100mISK per month in fuel, get about 6% job installation cost reduction (~25% max bonus, ~25% thereof will fit into a small tower)
b) Medium tower, 200mISK fuel, 12% discount
c) large tower, 400mISK fuel, 24% discount

As you can see, all POSes have the same throughput due to no slot limits.
So I will always choose a) UNLESS 6% discount save me more than 100mISK per month, in which case I will always choose c).
If I need to save 100mISK with the 6% discount, my monthly job installation costs will have to be higher than 1.666bil ISK.

It is assumed in the dev blog that typically the job installation costs range from 1-5% of the value of produced goods.
Assume I am in a somewhat heavy duty industrial hub since I want that special team that saves some material.
Normally I would pay around 8% of my produced goods value as job installation cost.

Which means I need to produce 20.8333 bil ISK in goods per month before a large POS can even start to become profitable.

Conclusion:
Unless I am using like 10 toons 24/7 on the same POS on the same type of goods, I will always choose setup a).

Although I really like the idea of a stacking bonus, I suspect the current proposal to be a too weak incentive to put up large towers - also quite far away from making this a "meaningful" choice in practically all relevant scenarios.
I therefore expect corresponding effects on fuel and PI demand in general.

Anything I missed?


The balance here is something we may well want to revisit as the dust settles, yes. There are other bonuses that you're not factoring into your math here; Ytterbium is working on a starbase update blog so I'd suggest waiting for that and then having this discussion in that feedback thread :)
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#65 - 2014-06-12 10:36:24 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
The part where you may want to have a large tower that is easier to defend.

You may have to defend it because you need to put your bpos in there in order to benefit from the bonus.


Is that an issue in Highsec?
I mean you can still take the tower down/evacuate if you get a wardec.
And if you are not there to do it, the tower won't defend itself anyway - all your CPU/PG is used for those labs/arrays.

Gilbaron wrote:

Oh, and those 20b a month. Not really a problem, I go through this per week. However, my products vary quite a bit, so I'm probably gonna need more than one type of array


o_O Whoa. ~80bil production in a month?!?? Is that legal? Maybe I should consider becoming that big industrialist...
shaun 27
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-06-12 10:42:53 UTC
- Don't need max runs, only need one run per job
- Nothing to stop you spamming moons except other players
- We have two distinct things, the base workforce cost which everyone pays and which scales on activity per system, and the NPC station tax which is levied on top of that but skipped in starbases and configurable in player-owned stations
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.[/quote]

Ok i suppose when i can start building and inventing etc i would have to see if its alot savings if i block the system stopping anyone esle building etc their. But it would be a nice incentive to reduce or get rid of this workforce cost for low sec n null sec give bit more incentive to produce outside empire. But as you said only thing stopping me is players well are they going to want to shoot offline pos's or my main one which would be a large minatar because you can be assured i would make it not profitable in the end ;).
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-06-12 11:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.


Having realised that, how about killing standings for market fees and locator agents, neither of which have anything to do with missioning, the only way to raise standing currently?

EDIT: Ahem, technically I guess you can raise standing by fw promotions too.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2014-06-12 11:30:35 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.


Having realised that, how about killing standings for market fees and locator agents, neither of which have anything to do with missioning, the only way to raise standing currently?

EDIT: Ahem, technically I guess you can raise standing by fw promotions too.


As and when we get to revisiting those areas, that will probably be a thing that we consider :)
Circumstantial Evidence
#69 - 2014-06-12 12:55:46 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.
Having realised that, how about killing standings for market fees and locator agents, neither of which have anything to do with missioning, the only way to raise standing currently?

EDIT: Ahem, technically I guess you can raise standing by fw promotions too.
As and when we get to revisiting those areas, that will probably be a thing that we consider :)
You can get agent / npc corp standings in an "industrial way" - courier / distribution missions. Raising standings with NPC corps through submitting industry jobs? Hmmm.... :) How could that be scaled, so that it takes a similar amount of time or effort to raise standings, compared to existing methods? I think there would have to be an "over time period" element. Without a time check, a player might quickly reach high standings, by submitting a ton of low cost ammo jobs, or a few very large and expensive jobs.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2014-06-12 13:12:48 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.
Having realised that, how about killing standings for market fees and locator agents, neither of which have anything to do with missioning, the only way to raise standing currently?

EDIT: Ahem, technically I guess you can raise standing by fw promotions too.
As and when we get to revisiting those areas, that will probably be a thing that we consider :)
You can get agent / npc corp standings in an "industrial way" - courier / distribution missions. Raising standings with NPC corps through submitting industry jobs? Hmmm.... :) How could that be scaled, so that it takes a similar amount of time or effort to raise standings, compared to existing methods? I think there would have to be an "over time period" element. Without a time check, a player might quickly reach high standings, by submitting a ton of low cost ammo jobs, or a few very large and expensive jobs.


It would require some design work, yes :)
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-06-12 13:16:40 UTC
On the topic of standings and I know this is off topic, I swear I'll shut up after this post, NPC corp standing hits for killing capsuleers are a nonsense penalty that needs to go, they don't even care if the kill was legal.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2014-06-12 13:48:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.
Having realised that, how about killing standings for market fees and locator agents, neither of which have anything to do with missioning, the only way to raise standing currently?

EDIT: Ahem, technically I guess you can raise standing by fw promotions too.
As and when we get to revisiting those areas, that will probably be a thing that we consider :)
You can get agent / npc corp standings in an "industrial way" - courier / distribution missions. Raising standings with NPC corps through submitting industry jobs? Hmmm.... :) How could that be scaled, so that it takes a similar amount of time or effort to raise standings, compared to existing methods? I think there would have to be an "over time period" element. Without a time check, a player might quickly reach high standings, by submitting a ton of low cost ammo jobs, or a few very large and expensive jobs.


It would require some design work, yes :)


I think you could make a really involved metagame if you would do something like make an NPC corp tag/share market where you can 'cash out' your LP for shares in a corporation. These would be redeemable as tags that can be traded with players on the open market, or to specific NPC competitor, friendly, or original headquarter corp stations. As NPC corps' ownership stakes change, the landscape of industry could change as well. LP stores could adjust prices, or station tax modifiers could adapt. Agent offers could change as well for better or for worse.

Eventually, drastic changes to a corp could happen, such as major competitors could stage a takeover, which could cause some stations of that corp to temporarily change hands. The manufacturing/industry metagame could effectively involve preventing a few NPC corps from gaining a monopoly in an industrial area as the more stations one faction controls, the higher 'installation costs' they will have. Of course, if your standings are high enough with them it won't hurt as much as it would for others, but eventually it would.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#73 - 2014-06-12 14:49:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
shaun 27 wrote:
Will you need to have max run bpcs for max run on invention as atm i cant seem to invent or copy anything. If you do need max runs will you look at copying time because for instance (@ pos with maxed skills) copying 1 curator 200 run is like 18 hours per bpc.

Invention error @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_TYPE
The job cost has changed
Error.FACILITY_TYPE (23564,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (22, 25)

Copying error on both new and researched blueprints @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed
Error.MISMATCH_COST (3976, 3890)

Also as i stated in a previous post here regarding tax ie system cost index. Will i be able to spam all the moons in a none system station to keep this cost down and stop other people raising it Or is this a constant price and isnt effected by amount of industry related jobs, Because you said that theirs no tax at pos's and i kinda see this as tax tbh. I assume this would be 0 in player owned systems and lower in low sec but shouldn't corps with standings towards a certain faction get a reduction on this cost if it is the case that pos's get charged system cost index (shouldnt be better then low sec or 0.0 though even with high standings)

shaun


- Don't need max runs, only need one run per job
- Nothing to stop you spamming moons except other players
- We have two distinct things, the base workforce cost which everyone pays and which scales on activity per system, and the NPC station tax which is levied on top of that but skipped in starbases and configurable in player-owned stations
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.



I have surfed SiSi and can't find ANYWHERE to set tax or even set restriction on production lines in a player owned station

Can you please tell me where I can find these settings, I am at the point of frustration, i have clicked every thing i can think of and the game is having its way with me and it is payback time.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2014-06-12 14:57:38 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
shaun 27 wrote:
Will you need to have max run bpcs for max run on invention as atm i cant seem to invent or copy anything. If you do need max runs will you look at copying time because for instance (@ pos with maxed skills) copying 1 curator 200 run is like 18 hours per bpc.

Invention error @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_TYPE
The job cost has changed
Error.FACILITY_TYPE (23564,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (22, 25)

Copying error on both new and researched blueprints @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed
Error.MISMATCH_COST (3976, 3890)

Also as i stated in a previous post here regarding tax ie system cost index. Will i be able to spam all the moons in a none system station to keep this cost down and stop other people raising it Or is this a constant price and isnt effected by amount of industry related jobs, Because you said that theirs no tax at pos's and i kinda see this as tax tbh. I assume this would be 0 in player owned systems and lower in low sec but shouldn't corps with standings towards a certain faction get a reduction on this cost if it is the case that pos's get charged system cost index (shouldnt be better then low sec or 0.0 though even with high standings)

shaun


- Don't need max runs, only need one run per job
- Nothing to stop you spamming moons except other players
- We have two distinct things, the base workforce cost which everyone pays and which scales on activity per system, and the NPC station tax which is levied on top of that but skipped in starbases and configurable in player-owned stations
- Standings stuff is something we'd like to have, but it doesn't make sense to use it for industry until there are ways to raise it through industry.



I have surfed SiSi and can't find ANYWHERE to set tax or even set restriction on production lines in a player owned station

Can you please tell me where I can find these settings, I am at the point of frustration, i have clicked every thing i can think of and the game is having its way with me and it is payback time.



Not implemented yet, sorry :) Nullabor's working on it.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#75 - 2014-06-12 15:18:13 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Something that just came to my mind: Will we have the opportunity to retract bids for Teams?

As depicted in my other post before, people can mess with other people already; henceforth, there should also be a way to mess back against these trolls.


I don't think this would be a good idea. One could drop an incredibly high bid to discourage others from bidding, then retract it at the last second to allow a second much lower bid to win.

This would only benefit the already extremely rich by allowing them to game the system. If you drop a huge bid, you should have to stick with it.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2014-06-12 15:56:58 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Something that just came to my mind: Will we have the opportunity to retract bids for Teams?

As depicted in my other post before, people can mess with other people already; henceforth, there should also be a way to mess back against these trolls.


I don't think this would be a good idea. One could drop an incredibly high bid to discourage others from bidding, then retract it at the last second to allow a second much lower bid to win.

This would only benefit the already extremely rich by allowing them to game the system. If you drop a huge bid, you should have to stick with it.


As said above, as it is, it can be exploited already and also only benefits the rich. With retracting, you can sure have this gigantic bid, but you can then also concentrate on the second place with more reasonable bids and bet on the retraction of the gigantic bid.

vOv

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#77 - 2014-06-12 16:27:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Rust Connor wrote:
Quick look today. Amazing! A few comments

1) skill
Just checked that Material Efficiency skill didnt change. Any plan for it?

2) install cost
Really like the cost decreasing by number of runs. You should keep that way, without limit.

3) material cost
Love the change to apply ME on total batch. That change alone is amazing. Stimulate long runs and Makes reserch useful even to small rigs. Wish i had a t2 bpo to check if you get a "free hull" on long runs....

1) Yes, there's a plan, it's not done yet
2) It becomes silly for certain items, we're probably going to use 1) to cap it some how
3) No free hulls!

Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


No tax at starbases. Nothing stops you spamming moons with towers except for other players :)



I was under the impression that we would have the ability to set the job install tax rate at a POS. Did that not make it in, or was the idea scrapped?

I was really looking forward to bottom up income from industry members.


My understanding is that you can only install corp jobs in a starbase, so you're just taxing yourself, which didn't seem worth the development time.


I'll restate how array taxes work for those that don't know or didn't happen to read my post in the F&I thread.

With the removal of remote research, the interface became completely useless. So it was removed. In order to use a POS lab or mfg array, one requires the following roles: Factory Manager, Rent Factory/Research Slot, Hanger Access (Other), and access to at least one corp wallet division.

WARNING! These roles allow anyone with them to completely clean out everything in every in-space hanger and that wallet, with the exception of audit log containers. So if you give someone hanger other access to a hanger division that someone is using to build a titan, they can deliver the titan job and steal it once it is complete.

Because POS arrays only have corp hanger divisions, in order to use them you have to put your stuff in the corp hanger. This makes all jobs installed at the array a corp job, not a personal one. And as a Factory Manager, you are renting on your corp's behalf, not on your own. Thus the fees/taxes are taken out of your currently active corp wallet division. Those fees are then deposited directly into the corp master wallet.

tl:dr; POS roles are at best half-assed, and in cases like this completely broken. WTB POS roles revamp.

There are a couple ways I can think of to fix it. But that is beyond the scope of this thread.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-06-12 19:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pic'n dor
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


Pic'n dor wrote:
2 - Will members will still see in the ui BPC that are in cans that they cannot view or know of in directors restricted level hangar ?


They should only be seeing blueprints that they can normally see through the inventory, based on roles. (Let me know if you find a case where that isn't true)



I will post a bug report for you to check. <<<< done

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-06-13 04:15:59 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
This would only benefit the already extremely rich by allowing them to game the system. If you drop a huge bid, you should have to stick with it.


As said above, as it is, it can be exploited already and also only benefits the rich. With retracting, you can sure have this gigantic bid, but you can then also concentrate on the second place with more reasonable bids and bet on the retraction of the gigantic bid.

vOv


The two "exploits" you stated earlier are that prices can be driven up to make the winner pay more than the team's worth and that the system name can be used to others' advantage.

In the former, you're assuming that the "shills" will always be outbid, a very dangerous assumption. Real shills work because they're working with the seller, so if they win the auction no money changes hands, but in the case of this system the winning bid is sunk ISK. If you're willing to risk your ISK to harm your competition that is fine industrial pvp.

The latter allows emergent gameplay, and although I think your example of setting up jobs to drive up the system cost index is unlikely, it would be marvellous if that actually happened.
Sigras
Conglomo
#80 - 2014-06-13 08:15:02 UTC
So I just tried to research a crystalline carbonide armor plate blueprint to level 1 ME...

The quote said just under a minute, but when I put the job in, it went in for just over 6 hours and one minute...

However after a minute or so went by, the job was able to be delivered. Must just be a display bug.