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LvL 4 FW Mission Imbalance: Issue?

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Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#21 - 2014-06-04 18:15:15 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Hey guys,

One of the things on the PVE side of FW that keeps getting brought to my attention is LVL 4 FW missions, and an imbalance between the ones that are run by the Gallente and Amarr vs the Minmatar and Caldari missions. The specific issue that I keep hearing is that Cal and Min missions can be run in Stealth bombers while Gal and Amarr missions need to be run in considerably better ships, often tech 3.

The reasons for the higher end ships that seem to be most common is the missile spam prevalent in the Gallente and Amarr missions. I've got a few other things on my list that were mentioned, but I'd rather hear directly from you guys as to what you think the issues are.

My questions for you in this regard are 3:

1: Do you feel this issue is important to you or people you fly with in FW?
2: What do you think is causing the imbalance between the faction missions where some factions can run their missions with SB while others need to bring a "bigger boat."
3: If some balance were to be brought across lvl4 FW missions, should it be geared towards everyone needing a "bigger boat," or everyone being able to run in stealth bombers?

This issue is one of a few on my plate at the moment. If there is a strong desire for change here it's something I plan to pass on and attempt to press the need to the dev team that handles PVE content. If the desire is not strong, and it appears the people who have brought this to me are a small minority, I plan to move on to other issues.

/discuss



1 this has been important since 2008
2 as many years of threads have been suggested the main imbalance is the ewar. balance the ewar so that either all races have heavy ewar and GOOD ewar. or no ewar at all
3 fw missions should be geared toward groupwork. heavy payout heavy risks.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-06-04 18:16:18 UTC
Keep in mind that you *can* run at least 4-5 of the L4 FW missions in an Assault Frigate, even as Gallente... though it's far from optimal unless you're in a group of 3+. I'm ok with the idea of missions being accessible to newbros - I'm not ok with the idea that the highest end PvE content in FW should be equally available to low skill characters in shitfit bombers. Every other area of the game requires a significant investment to run L4s, and I feel that FW missions should as well.

For most areas of EVE that means battleships or marauders or HACs. That's not viable in FW with the way missions are currently distributed, so I'd prefer that the bar be set to roughly faction cruiser / HAC / T3 level. That's something achieveable in your first six months in the game, and I don't feel that making the massive income available via L4s at high tier available to newbros is really the best thing for the game.

ESPECIALLY given Malcanis' Law and Mynna's comments during the roundtable.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#23 - 2014-06-04 18:29:13 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
1: Do you feel this issue is important to you or people you fly with in FW?
Yes. I think easy to farm missions creates a bad culture in a militia (see Caldari).




Minmatar likely have the easiest missions. They also have dominated fw occupancy more than any other faction since inferno. Before inferno it was pretty much all Caldari.

Just saying.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#24 - 2014-06-04 18:31:28 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
How many FW players actually farm the tags in these missions? I know I usually go in, kill the target, warp out.
On another note: I believe FW missions need to be totally rethought. Currently they are abused for easy isk/LP. FW missions should contribute to the cause, should not be easy, and should encourage PvP.

STUFF

Absolutely 0 chance of this happening. I'd consider us lucky if I can drum up enough noise to press a balance pass, nevermind a complete rework. Some aspects of FW missions also need to stay the same and hold purpose. The long travel times make it hard for someone to "camp" an agent system or run locator agents on people running the missions. The short mission duration limits exposure. PVE mission ships =/= optimal PVP fits. If you want to catch these guys, you shouldn't have 20 minutes to go grab the most optimal ship in your hangar along with 6 of your closest friends and come back with them, you should be ready to dive in after them to kill that PVE ship in your PVP fit.


And you would be entirely correct, but we all know missions need to be changed. FW missions in particular should contribute to the war effort, encourage pvp, and encourage teamwork. Solo SBs doing L4 missions needs to die, and someone has already given the fix. Put webbing frigates in the missions.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-06-04 20:27:25 UTC
Remove the ewar inequalities with regards to bombers
Reduce the LP payout especially at high WZ tier. Possibly detach LP payout from WZ tier.

Anything more than that is probably too ambitious
Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#26 - 2014-06-04 20:59:58 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:

My questions for you in this regard are 3:

1: Do you feel this issue is important to you or people you fly with in FW?
2: What do you think is causing the imbalance between the faction missions where some factions can run their missions with SB while others need to bring a "bigger boat."
3: If some balance were to be brought across lvl4 FW missions, should it be geared towards everyone needing a "bigger boat," or everyone being able to run in stealth bombers?


1 - Yes. Missions should be the bread-n-butter for earning LP.....not plexing.

2 - DPS application and ECM. I have personally run level 4 missions for Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar (no experience with Amarr). Cal and Min are stupid easy to solo in a stealth bomber. Gallente...not only do you have to tank the crap out of your ship to deal with the 'missile spam', but even having a sensor strength of well over 100 (113 on my fit) does not protect you from constant jams.

3 - Personally don't care in what direction it goes, as long as all are relatively balanced.
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#27 - 2014-06-05 01:41:38 UTC
What I find is that even with a T3 max ECCM skils and two ECCM I'm still getting jammed and this a annoying for me. I think that either all races should be able to run them with SB or none should. While some people have stated it does tend to make the LP higher on one side, the fact that one group and make it hand over fist cancles that out.

I also agree that they still need to be at a lower bar for newbros, but be fair to all the newbros not just one group.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#28 - 2014-06-05 02:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: exiik Shardani
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Hey guys,

One of the things on the PVE side of FW that keeps getting brought to my attention is LVL 4 FW missions, and an imbalance between the ones that are run by the Gallente and Amarr vs the Minmatar and Caldari missions. The specific issue that I keep hearing is that Cal and Min missions can be run in Stealth bombers while Gal and Amarr missions need to be run in considerably better ships, often tech 3.

The reasons for the higher end ships that seem to be most common is the missile spam prevalent in the Gallente and Amarr missions. I've got a few other things on my list that were mentioned, but I'd rather hear directly from you guys as to what you think the issues are.

My questions for you in this regard are 3:

1: Do you feel this issue is important to you or people you fly with in FW?
2: What do you think is causing the imbalance between the faction missions where some factions can run their missions with SB while others need to bring a "bigger boat."
3: If some balance were to be brought across lvl4 FW missions, should it be geared towards everyone needing a "bigger boat," or everyone being able to run in stealth bombers?

This issue is one of a few on my plate at the moment. If there is a strong desire for change here it's something I plan to pass on and attempt to press the need to the dev team that handles PVE content. If the desire is not strong, and it appears the people who have brought this to me are a small minority, I plan to move on to other issues.

/discuss


1) yeah
2) balance, but if you want make it "more hard" , get there faction spawn chance... Is too much risky jump over 10 jumps from agent to mission. Much more than "null ratting with blues in local".
3) you can try create lvl5 FW mission for "bigger boat's" ;-)

What FW really need
1) rewards for ppl who actively fights, defend/attacks iHub's/systems, live at stations in FW area and donate LP's to iHubs -> maybe any kind of discount in LP shop? limit for FW missions per day? bonus for ppl who long time fight for militia?
2) make upgrading systems more useful -> like discount in LP store, FW system V upgrade make wide cyno jammer ....
3) rework items and prices in LP shops (there are many expensive things but nobody use/buy/sell it)
4) solve "Allies problem" -> one side change wz to allies wz due to easy farming there.


but donot forget many players are in FW because PvP with "LP earn bonus" (like waiting for fight inside plex etc...) When you remove rewards, many players will not have enough ISK's for PvP ships....

sry for my English :-(

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#29 - 2014-06-05 02:54:17 UTC
I would much rather channel farmers into mssions that don't affect WZ control then make them super difficult. Balance them to the same difficulty. Make it so that the rats don't shoot friendly militia. Add a kill switch for the opposing militia to hit.

On a different note non FW missions in low sec are as hard as they are in high. High vs low should be different. NPC Corporations shouldn't straddle security zones as they do. You could have more fun with LP store diversity if they didn't.
X Gallentius
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#30 - 2014-06-05 03:01:47 UTC
1. I'm in the minority. I like the current system just the way it is. Having hard missions makes my militia stronger and having easy missions makes the other factions weaker. Plus, ship quality can go down by quite a bit if missions are done in groups of 2 or more (MMO anybody?).
2. Required ship size to complete a mission solo. Infinite missile range, constant dps, ewar in particular.
3. Harder is better.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#31 - 2014-06-05 03:57:06 UTC
also missions need to be changed to follow the new sovereignty system rather than the old one.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#32 - 2014-06-05 04:03:17 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:

What FW really need
1) rewards for ppl who actively fights, defend/attacks iHub's/systems, live at stations in FW area and donate LP's to iHubs -> maybe any kind of discount in LP shop? limit for FW missions per day? bonus for ppl who long time fight for militia?
2) make upgrading systems more useful -> like discount in LP store, FW system V upgrade make wide cyno jammer ....
3) rework items and prices in LP shops (there are many expensive things but nobody use/buy/sell it)
4) solve "Allies problem" -> one side change wz to allies wz due to easy farming there.


but donot forget many players are in FW because PvP with "LP earn bonus" (like waiting for fight inside plex etc...) When you remove rewards, many players will not have enough ISK's for PvP ships....


Believe me when I tell you that I'm advocating for a lot more this year than FW PVE content. This is one of many possible efforts here, but to this point I've been unsure of how much of an issue this one is to most people.

Please keep the feedback coming guys, and spread the word. I'll have more stuff later on other issues, but at this point, the best way to help with these issues is to spread the word to your fellow militia mates and keep the constructive posts, like have been in this thread so far, coming.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

FunkyBacon on Twitter

Odysseus Olacar
Calibrated Chaos
#33 - 2014-06-05 05:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Odysseus Olacar
1. FW missions are vitally important to isk making in FW. Allot of people complain about a lack of Bs or BC fleets but for Winmatar personally, high LP and relatively easy isk making at T4 allows us to do this. ( Even in Amarr Millita. ) Allot of what I am seeing is " It's too easy to do FW missions etc etc. However keep in mind the process of even getting to T4 to make those missions worth while it is easily 1-2 months of plexing and grinding systems.

2. The imbalance is easy to see, Target paints make Amarr missions hard, Damps make Gallente missions hard forcing you to fly bigger or be super awesome in an SB. I'm passive about the difficulty of the missions because the harderd the Gal/Amarr missions are generally means that their LP is worth more as opposed to Minmatar missions.

What to do?

The biggest issue I see, and is being discussed here is that LP PAYOUT IS TOO HIGH FOR HOW EASY IT IS>. and that few groups spend a long time grinding systems and plexing then countless others mooch off of the efforts with minimal work in the actually FW mechanics of space.

So a solution or something for a change; what if there was a system that could "count" FW efforts. For example, a system that can calculate the amount of Plexes, Ihubs, or WT killed a Corp/Alliance participated in. And using that calculation award that Alliance/Corp an LP payout bonus that shows their participation in FW. The bonus would of course be capped at a certain point.

Maybe an easy way to think of it is like there is a Militia wide Tier level, but what if your Corp/Alliance had one too?

Another thing to consider:

Making missions require bigger ships or gangs would be difficult because 1. Pirates would be all over those likes bees to honey. And while it may bring fights, it may completely prevent you from finishing the mission resulting in standings loss, or you loose your whole fleet then you spend the next week trying to gain LP just to make up for the ships you lost.

2. Gate camps suck.

3. If LP becomes significantly harder to come by Fights and the size of Fights in FW may GREATLY down scale because no one has the isk to afford those ships or willingness to risk them.

4. As easy as FW missions are the "Climb" to get there is hard. This cannot be forgotten when considering how to change FW missions.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#34 - 2014-06-05 05:13:42 UTC
3. bombers. Or just don't change it. If people want "harder" just for harder sake, there is always the other faction to join. This keeps FW open for lower SP characters.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#35 - 2014-06-05 05:55:38 UTC
The imbalance is only perceived because the reality of LP/isk per hour made is being ignored.

That said - I do believe it should also be possible for you Gals and the Amarr to run L4 missions inefficiently in SBs just like a few dumb people in Minmatar and Caldari do.
I 100% believe in sharing the stupid people between all militias. Big smile

The fact that is ignored whenever this topic comes up is that while it is possible to run some of the L4 missions in an SB - It is a stupid way to do them.
Their LP per hour is quite pathetic.
(I tried it once in a Manticore and instantly went 'F**K THIS' and got in a Drake and later used Tengus.)

A Gallente militia farmer using their T3 cruiser are making a lot more LP per hour than the Caldari Stealth Bomber farmer. So the Risk vs Reward aspect is working fine.


To really farm Caldari FW missions we ran them in T3 gangs - Just like the Gallente do to farm FW mission.
I would suggest that the Gallente are generally making the same amount of LP while farming in their T3s as the Caldari are when farming in T3s. (But the Gals make more isk as their LP is more valuable - Maybe you could ask CCP to nerf Gal LP payouts to balance that? Cool )

You can equate people running L4s in SBs to people who mine to make isk. While they do make some isk - it is not a lot and they could have made more by doing something else.


Mirana Bacon - Could you ask CCP if you can have some figures on how much LP the average Galmil mission farmer in a T3 makes compared to a Calmil mission farmer in a SB in an hour at an equal tier?

Then ask for the figures if they both use T3s so that people can judge if there really is an imbalance.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#36 - 2014-06-05 06:39:04 UTC
Odysseus Olacar wrote:


Making missions require bigger ships or gangs would be difficult because 1. Pirates would be all over those likes bees to honey. And while it may bring fights, it may completely prevent you from finishing the mission resulting in standings loss, or you loose your whole fleet then you spend the next week trying to gain LP just to make up for the ships you lost.

2. Gate camps suck.

3. If LP becomes significantly harder to come by Fights and the size of Fights in FW may GREATLY down scale because no one has the isk to afford those ships or willingness to risk them.


you never loose standings by letting a fw mission expire. Pirate already try to intercept amarr militia mission gangs and usually result in them getting heavy losses. just fly bigger stuff in bigger groups

3. it will take a few years for the stockpiles everybody in militia has built up to run out of. And then things will be back to normal, expensive ships will once again feel like a kick in the balls when you loose one instead of 'o i have 3 more archons in station'

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Theroine
Pew Pew Pirates
#37 - 2014-06-05 06:51:56 UTC
I think pushing the anti-missile mod that has been talked about for ages would be one way to address the missile spam issue. Instead of making it a targeted mod, like TDs, maybe it could function as some sort of missile guidance jamming system against all incoming missiles. Bigger brains could figure out the details.
X Gallentius
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#38 - 2014-06-05 08:23:46 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
(But the Gals make more isk as their LP is more valuable - Maybe you could ask CCP to nerf Gal LP payouts to balance that? Cool )
.
Um, yeah, sorry we didn't push to the highest tier possible so all the leeches, err "farmers", could ruin our isk/lp payout. Our bad.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-06-05 09:36:31 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Hey guys,

One of the things on the PVE side of FW that keeps getting brought to my attention is LVL 4 FW missions, and an imbalance between the ones that are run by the Gallente and Amarr vs the Minmatar and Caldari missions. The specific issue that I keep hearing is that Cal and Min missions can be run in Stealth bombers while Gal and Amarr missions need to be run in considerably better ships, often tech 3.

The reasons for the higher end ships that seem to be most common is the missile spam prevalent in the Gallente and Amarr missions. I've got a few other things on my list that were mentioned, but I'd rather hear directly from you guys as to what you think the issues are.

My questions for you in this regard are 3:

1: Do you feel this issue is important to you or people you fly with in FW?
2: What do you think is causing the imbalance between the faction missions where some factions can run their missions with SB while others need to bring a "bigger boat."
3: If some balance were to be brought across lvl4 FW missions, should it be geared towards everyone needing a "bigger boat," or everyone being able to run in stealth bombers?

This issue is one of a few on my plate at the moment. If there is a strong desire for change here it's something I plan to pass on and attempt to press the need to the dev team that handles PVE content. If the desire is not strong, and it appears the people who have brought this to me are a small minority, I plan to move on to other issues.

/discuss


1. no. I flew in minnie fw using 2 cerbs and a phoon and farmed 40mil lp. I preferred the bigger ships.
2. there is none. scrubs are gonna fly bombers, but they suck at doing missions properly tbh. The imbalance is that minmatar has been at tier 4 for so long, which personally makes 0 sense to me. The l4 missions aren't a big deal until you get to the higher tiers, and I suspect that CCP didn't intend for any one faction to sit on tier 4 for a month at a time.
3. bigger ships for sure. It is possible to go out in a keres and go on a rampage of bombers, but I miss the old camping days where pirates would chill on gates and just massacre anything bigger then a shuttle that came through, which could really lead to some great fights. Now in FW it seems that most of the fights happen on an acceleration gate to some plex, which tends to mean its geared alot more towards frigs. Mind you, I don't think alot of that comes from l4 missioners but it would be nice to see people forced into bigger ships to bring some more life back to fw lowsec and the accompanying pirate gatecamps that were so common in the past.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#40 - 2014-06-05 11:26:52 UTC
What if:

The agents gave "missions" to capture offensive plexes in certain systems, instead of having to deal with npcs/structures?

For example:A lvl2 minmatar FW mission agent might give a mission like:
"Go and capture a small plex in Ashged." Upon completion of mission you'll get #ISK #LP. Bonus for completing in # hours is #ISK #LP

This way the missioner gets some additional LP by the mission itself, and the plex capture LP. Mission levels indicate plex sizes.

L1 missions -> capture novice
L2 missions -> capture small
L3 missons -> capture med
L4 missions -> capture large

Since plex capturing difficulty is same for all races atm, this will remove the racial imbalance. Missioners will make additional isk and help warzone.

An option would be for the agents to give defensive plexing missions if a systems contest amount is over 75%.
Also rewards might be in form of opposing militia tags instead of ISK and LP.
Just thinking out loudly. Feel free to point the major flaw that I am certainly not being able to see in it.