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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Joe South
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1001 - 2014-05-31 16:34:35 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Fozzie stated the following in Post #630 on April 3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589

"As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime."

This was known for some time and repeated in various other outlets


Thanks, but that's a forum post among many pages of forum posts. The original dev blog was not modified in this way until very recently. There is no reason for the conflicting information to have remained.

On top of this, the point remains that some pilots are having a skill removed without any adjustment or compensation. Someone who had both trained to V before any of this was changed is still getting the shaft.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#1002 - 2014-05-31 17:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk MacGirk
Joe South wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Fozzie stated the following in Post #630 on April 3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589

"As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime."

This was known for some time and repeated in various other outlets


Thanks, but that's a forum post among many pages of forum posts. The original dev blog was not modified in this way until very recently. There is no reason for the conflicting information to have remained.

On top of this, the point remains that some pilots are having a skill removed without any adjustment or compensation. Someone who had both trained to V before any of this was changed is still getting the shaft.


Scout drone operation isn't going away, it's being renamed to like Drone Avionics or something. Combat drone operation is going away and being replaced by Light and Medium. Don't think you are actually losing anything if you had both trained already. Yes, if you had neither fully trained and just went with Scout to 5, you may get more "free" SP in the end, but I don't think you lose SP. Could be wrong but I don't think so.
Rikki Bigg
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#1003 - 2014-05-31 22:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rikki Bigg
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Joe South wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Fozzie stated the following in Post #630 on April 3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589

"As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime."

This was known for some time and repeated in various other outlets


Thanks, but that's a forum post among many pages of forum posts. The original dev blog was not modified in this way until very recently. There is no reason for the conflicting information to have remained.

On top of this, the point remains that some pilots are having a skill removed without any adjustment or compensation. Someone who had both trained to V before any of this was changed is still getting the shaft.


Scout drone operation isn't going away, it's being renamed to like Drone Avionics or something. Combat drone operation is going away and being replaced by Light and Medium. Don't think you are actually losing anything if you had both trained already. Yes, if you had neither fully trained and just went with Scout to 5, you may get more "free" SP in the end, but I don't think you lose SP. Could be wrong but I don't think so.


The point is this:

An experienced player that has both Combat and Scout Drone Operation isn't effected either way, they will get the new Light/Medium skills.

A brand new player that was told to train the drone skill to get 'free' skill points possibly didn't have the information buried in the thread, and worst case scenario trained Combat Drone Operation cross map with no implants, gains a very modest return of 3:2. Players 'in the know' instead train Scout Drone Operation, and get three for one with their sp investment.

A alt character for a ratting Sentry Ishtar or Carrier pilot has Scout Drone Operation trained to V (best case scenario) and no sp invested in Combat, as they never use Light/Medium drones. They get a free gift for something they would likely never train anyway.


Tell me how CCP, that is making an attempt (or at least the appearance of an attempt) to recruit more players and make the experience better for the new players, didn't drop the ball on this one all because someone couldn't be bothered to update the devblog when they made a rather sizable change to the rules, at least until the point was reached that it was too late to benefit from it?
JamnOne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1004 - 2014-05-31 22:31:42 UTC
Will one of the following for heavies be changed - skill or damage?

I read in the blog that MWD speed and orbital distance will increase and damage will decrease. Does this mean the base damage will decrease and the skill bonus of 5% will remain to bring it back up? Will the base damage increase so the speed and distance that decreases the damage of the heavy drone will be offset by the skill increase?
Joe South
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1005 - 2014-05-31 22:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe South
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Yes, if you had neither fully trained and just went with Scout to 5, you may get more "free" SP in the end, but I don't think you lose SP. Could be wrong but I don't think so.


You are exactly correct in one sense and, as someone else expressed in a different way, you are also making my point for me. The full reality, however, is Scout Drone Operation V is all that's necessary to receive fully trained credit for the new Light and Medium skills, so Combat Drone Operation V (512K) is effectively being thrown away -- it's about a week worth of training down the drain.

It's disingenuous for CCP to say, "Hey, you get two skills for one with this change." That's especially true when they left different instructions in the dev blog until a day or so ago.

The only fair thing for CCP to do is give back 512K in SP to any character that has both Scout Drone Operation V and Combat Drone Operation V. That's an easy, acceptable solution that can satisfy all. How many of those opportunities come along?

Is Fozzie even reading this anymore?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1006 - 2014-06-01 12:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
i also think its wrong that fighter bombers have more tank than black op battleships ... they should trade some tank for lower sig radius .. will protect them against bombs more and give them more orbit velocity ... they orbit the speed of a battleship...
i would also suggest a higher rate of fire but less damage ... 15seconds is a bit long..
they have 125 sig .. yet are actually smaller than fighters which are in turn about 1/4 the size of a frig..

edit - its also curious that heavies have better attack range than fighters
i also think its wrong fighters have more tank than cruisers ... they should trade some tank for lower sig and higher orbit velocity ..
i like that they have the racial weapon ranges .. a little too short on optimal on some though .. too close an orbit for good tracking..
i would like all the drones too have better synergy with their racial weapon types..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1007 - 2014-06-01 12:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
on drone sig radius .. they are too high and should be reduced.. they after-all about 1/10th the size of an actual frigate..
light drones ... sig radius
warrior ....... 8
acolyte ....... 10
hornet ....... 12
hobgoblin ..... 14

medium drones
Valkyrie .... 16
infiltrator .... 18
Vespa .... 20
Hammerhead .... 22

Heavy drones
Beserker ..... 24
Praetor ..... 26
Wasp ..... 28
Ogre .... 30

Sentry drones
Bouncer ...... 32
Curator ...... 34
Warden ..... 36
Garde .... 38

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1008 - 2014-06-01 15:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
some movable turrets on the drone models would be nice .. like ships have :) .. also more unique drones would be nice
its a little weird you used a fighter for the gecko ... no faction tag on it either.. a unique ogre sized model would make much more sense

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1009 - 2014-06-01 15:30:47 UTC
and please put drone control range in the attributes tab for christ sake ... having too use so many 3rd party sites too do basic things is just poor and downright bizzare

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1010 - 2014-06-01 16:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
perhaps you could add entity range to drone attributes tab in game and perhaps rename it to orbit range so its easier for noobs too understand...

we need more clarity on how drones actually work... its quite difficult for an older player too understand all the different facets of how drones work and the weird names like activation proximity, coding etc behind them .. imagine what its like for a noob gallente pilot trying too learn how there main weapon type works....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1011 - 2014-06-01 17:34:31 UTC
i also think that ecm should make drones idle when the parent ship is jammed ... since they only operate because of the comms link with the ship i.e. drone bandwidth ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1012 - 2014-06-01 23:36:21 UTC
Joe South wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Yes, if you had neither fully trained and just went with Scout to 5, you may get more "free" SP in the end, but I don't think you lose SP. Could be wrong but I don't think so.


You are exactly correct in one sense and, as someone else expressed in a different way, you are also making my point for me. The full reality, however, is Scout Drone Operation V is all that's necessary to receive fully trained credit for the new Light and Medium skills, so Combat Drone Operation V (512K) is effectively being thrown away -- it's about a week worth of training down the drain.

It's disingenuous for CCP to say, "Hey, you get two skills for one with this change." That's especially true when they left different instructions in the dev blog until a day or so ago.

The only fair thing for CCP to do is give back 512K in SP to any character that has both Scout Drone Operation V and Combat Drone Operation V. That's an easy, acceptable solution that can satisfy all. How many of those opportunities come along?

Is Fozzie even reading this anymore?



Basically this. I admit that we're all effectively getting some 'free' SP out of this, but some people are getting half a million more than others, and that's not fair, and not in the spirit of EvE, with some players getting favored by CCP and some not.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1013 - 2014-06-02 13:51:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
fozzie ... are geckos going to be updated with the new drone ranges etc? .. and also will 1 gecko they still do more dps than 2 ogres like they do now ?


Geckos are indeed being updated with the new ranges, but their base damage is not changing in Kronos.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1014 - 2014-06-02 15:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Joe South wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Fozzie stated the following in Post #630 on April 3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589

"As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime."

This was known for some time and repeated in various other outlets


Thanks, but that's a forum post among many pages of forum posts. The original dev blog was not modified in this way until very recently. There is no reason for the conflicting information to have remained.

On top of this, the point remains that some pilots are having a skill removed without any adjustment or compensation. Someone who had both trained to V before any of this was changed is still getting the shaft.


Scout drone operation isn't going away, it's being renamed to like Drone Avionics or something. Combat drone operation is going away and being replaced by Light and Medium. Don't think you are actually losing anything if you had both trained already. Yes, if you had neither fully trained and just went with Scout to 5, you may get more "free" SP in the end, but I don't think you lose SP. Could be wrong but I don't think so.


yes but what about those who DIDN'T have it trained to V. I just spent 10 days on 5 7 characters training combat drone operation to V. This was a COMPLETE waste of time now as all of them already had scout drone operation to V since this was the prerequisite for all t2 light and medium drones........

I would like to have my 50 70 combined days of training back which i could have used on things they were ACTUALLY MAPPED FOR instead of stopping everything to train a 2x skill which was already done by training a 1x skill.
Absocold
Origin.
Fraternity.
#1015 - 2014-06-02 17:47:58 UTC
Quote:
...heavy drones will see their orbit range increased by between 1300% and 1500%


You just made it impossible to use smartbombs to kill heavy drones, they will orbit at more than twice the distance a smartbomb of any size will reach.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1016 - 2014-06-02 20:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
To reiterate on my earlier comment scout drone operation to V (1x) was only 216,000 sp where as combat drone operation (2x) is 512,000 sp.

There are three situations which would be nice if CCP would address for different characters

Character 1
Combat drone (not injected)
Scout drone V


result: change nothing and thanks for the free skills

Character 2
Combat drone V
Scout drone (not injected)

This would most likely have been a very odd train given the characteristic but I'm willing to bet there were several newer players that got this based off their corp leadership recommendations.
result: character receives 296,000 sp (sp of combat - missing sp of scout)

Character 3
Combat drone V
Scout drone V

result: player receives 512,000 free sp as the combat was completely unnecessary

This obviously does not take into account people without these skills to V but you can easily apply the same principles I listed above to their characters.

Even if the only thing that happens is that players with combat drone to V would get the "character 2" option regardless of their scout drone skill I would be more accepting. It still would screw over people who got both to V but it wouldn't feel so much like a bad April fools joke for those of use who spent the time training it.
Marsan
#1017 - 2014-06-03 01:29:21 UTC
I'm still not seeing why I'd ever use Caldari, or Amarr. In nearly every case I either want to hit small/fast targets or I want to hit slow/big targets as hard as possible. A middle of the road drone isn't worth carrying unless I'm missioning and the damage type is right. (Even then I'm not sure anyone will want to switch yet another system.) There isn't even a choice between speed and tracking as the same drone has the best speed and tracking. Simply put unless I'm flying something with a drone bay the size of the carrier I'm not bringing Amarr or Caldari drones, and even then I'm not likely to pull out my slide rule to figure out the right drone for the job....

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Lucas41
SOMACOM
#1018 - 2014-06-03 12:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas41
removing comment until I can check ingame. I must be missing something
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1019 - 2014-06-03 13:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Marsan wrote:
I'm still not seeing why I'd ever use Caldari, or Amarr. In nearly every case I either want to hit small/fast targets or I want to hit slow/big targets as hard as possible. A middle of the road drone isn't worth carrying unless I'm missioning and the damage type is right. (Even then I'm not sure anyone will want to switch yet another system.) There isn't even a choice between speed and tracking as the same drone has the best speed and tracking. Simply put unless I'm flying something with a drone bay the size of the carrier I'm not bringing Amarr or Caldari drones, and even then I'm not likely to pull out my slide rule to figure out the right drone for the job....

You have a drone slide rule?

Seriously though, Gila and Rattlesnake are stripped of the drone powers? How many ships are left with solid drone bonuses these days? It's bad enough that drones do not travel with you in warp and can be destroyed fairly easily with no obvious advantage over turrets or missiles. Carriers need much more love against the DD and love for their drones and RR powers which are currently quite limited. Carriers have no special bonuses for drones and fighters cannot compete with sentries. Also, Carriers cannot fit all cap RR like logi ships due to massive needs for EHP against the DD challenging their capacitor production.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1020 - 2014-06-03 13:02:55 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Joe South wrote:
Since someone waited until the very last day or so before posting on the dev blog that we actually didn't need to train Combat Drone Operation V, you should give us the SP back for that skill when you make the change. This is for characters that also had Scout Drone Operation V trained.

You should do this anyway, regardless of this miscommunication, as any other approach simply gives SP to those who didn't train this skill while eliminating a fully trained skill for another set of characters. If someone has explained how this is will be fairly compensated, I apologize for not seeing this and would appreciate a link to that reasonable explanation as a reply to this post.



Fozzie stated the following in Post #630 on April 3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589

"As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime."

This was known for some time and repeated in various other outlets


yes but they didn't update THE OFFICIAL DEV blog for much later. If you didn't read it here in the forums you would have no way of knowing that.