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[Kronos] Blockade Runner Rebalance

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2014-05-27 05:41:25 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Which I might add I've used many times when hauling expensive cargo, so don't tell me that it doesn't work.


Allow me to introduce you to the tactical bump, I'm sure you're well versed in its application. If not, I'm certain a man named James will be pleased to school you in its use.

I guarantee you it won't work on me, because I fly my ship intelligently unlike some people here.

I've undocked in Jita with T1 industrials full of really expensive stuff. I'm talking completely untanked Epithal with 500+ million ISK worth of PI commodities that I use to make Ascendancy implants off the blueprints I get from running ghost sites. Nobody's ganked me yet.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#482 - 2014-05-27 05:53:27 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
[quote=baltec1][quote=Rapscallion Jones][quote=baltec1][quote=Rapscallion Jones]

Mind you this was pre-scan immunity so the shooter knew they were worth shooting. Personally I'd have flown a Retriever BPO out of Jita in a bricked T3, not a BR.


I'd have done it in an interceptor.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#483 - 2014-05-27 06:53:18 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Blockade runners die on undock from Jita daily. Do they all use instawarps? No, I seriously doubt that although they should. I've not been killed on undock, however I'm aware of several individuals who have been and it was strictly a consequence of being caught in the congestion, unable to get aligned and warped in time. Mind you this was pre-scan immunity so the shooter knew they were worth shooting. Personally I'd have flown a Retriever BPO out of Jita in a bricked T3, not a BR.


My idea would've been a good thing for you to have read Undocking - More Routes Out of Station.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#484 - 2014-05-27 15:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Raw Matters
When choosing between similar ships of different races, I'd love to see options that give me a choice between this and that. When I look at the current proposal for Blockade Runners, I see no options, only the Viator.

If I compare the Viator vs Prowler, which is typically cargo vs. align speed, I now see more cargo and faster align on the Viator vs. nothing on the Prowler. I don't really get the point of this. I see a launcher/turret choice, but who with a sane mind would ever fit a weapon on a cloaked transport ship?? Standard fitting is cloak + either scan-probe launcher (WH) or tractor beam.

How I would design these ships:

1. Create a ship that is focused on cloaky hauling. The one same ship for all four races, all with a 2/3/3 slot layout.
2. Add the effect of a module to each ship that is likely to be equipped by a pilot of that race.
- Amarr gets the effect of an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II (+20% armor resist vs all, -36 CPU, -1 power)
- Caldari gets the effect of a (deactivated) Adaptive Invulnerability Field II (+20% shield resist vs all, -44 CPU -1 power)
- Gallente gets the effect of an Expanded Cargohold II (+27.5% cargo, -20% structure, -10% speed)
- Minmatar gets the effect of a Nanofiber Internal Structure II (+9.4% speed, -15.8% agility, -20% structure)

Then I had the choice between two more durable versions (choice between my favorite tanking style), a slower one with more cargo or one that will be faster.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#485 - 2014-05-27 20:37:25 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
When choosing between similar ships of different races, I'd love to see options that give me a choice between this and that. When I look at the current proposal for Blockade Runners, I see no options, only the Viator.

If I compare the Viator vs Prowler, which is typically cargo vs. align speed, I now see more cargo and faster align on the Viator vs. nothing on the Prowler. I don't really get the point of this. I see a launcher/turret choice, but who with a sane mind would ever fit a weapon on a cloaked transport ship?? Standard fitting is cloak + either scan-probe launcher (WH) or tractor beam.

How I would design these ships:

1. Create a ship that is focused on cloaky hauling. The one same ship for all four races, all with a 2/3/3 slot layout.
2. Add the effect of a module to each ship that is likely to be equipped by a pilot of that race.
- Amarr gets the effect of an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II (+20% armor resist vs all, -36 CPU, -1 power)
- Caldari gets the effect of a (deactivated) Adaptive Invulnerability Field II (+20% shield resist vs all, -44 CPU -1 power)
- Gallente gets the effect of an Expanded Cargohold II (+27.5% cargo, -20% structure, -10% speed)
- Minmatar gets the effect of a Nanofiber Internal Structure II (+9.4% speed, -15.8% agility, -20% structure)

Then I had the choice between two more durable versions (choice between my favorite tanking style), a slower one with more cargo or one that will be faster.


The irony here is, I started to think the same way, only substitute Viator with Prowler. So reading your post actually convinced me everything is fine, there are choices. After all, we both thought along the same lines and still came to different conclusions. Lol
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#486 - 2014-05-28 05:38:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! Here's the details of the Blockade Runner rebalance that we announced in the Fanfest keynote.
These ships were working fairly well, so while we're giving them a pretty significant set of improvements across the board we're keeping their basic role and purpose intact.

Highlights are:
[list]
  • They all now have two highslots for a probe launcher or covert cyno alongside the cloak. The Prowler gets a third low.

    • Just my luck - Finished cross training 2 cyno 5 alts to Prowlers specifically for the 2nd highslot a week before Fanfest.

    Nice changes. The tanking bonus is much better utilized as a warp speed bonus.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    Atherios Lincestor
    The Library Association
    Wormlife
    #487 - 2014-05-28 12:34:20 UTC
    Sweet Times wrote:
    CCP FOZZIE i would like you to respond to my question please

    As a relative new player to eve when i invest weeks and months training to use a particular ship is this taken into account when you make changes to the ships.

    Its like when you invest in a bank you like to see a return on that investment .And when you see all that investment gone at the stroke of a pen you wonder why you invested in the first place isnt that right fozzie.

    So can i ask you to explain in detail as your costomer and one who contributes to your employment why you have taking a ship i invested all that time in as it was the best ship to fulfill my needs to being after the kronos patch to being the worst ship in its class that would be most understanding of you.

    As it is i am questioning weather it is worth investing time and money in a game which can change things to the extent that all that time and money has been a complete waste .

    I would like to understand the reasoning behind making the proweler from being the most sutible ship for my needs in its class to being the worst

    (because if it is just that the prowler was being used more and so you nerfed it and boosted the others coz they were not then if that is your reasoning then im quitting the game as i see then there is no point in investying time and money in this game anymore if that your reason )

    I would like to hear your reasons please FOZZIe


    Same issue here so...
    Bravo!
    Rab See
    Stellar Dynamics
    #488 - 2014-05-28 12:55:55 UTC
    Atherios Lincestor wrote:
    Sweet Times wrote:
    CCP FOZZIE i would like you to respond to my question please

    As a relative new player to eve when i invest weeks and months training to use a particular ship is this taken into account when you make changes to the ships.

    Its like when you invest in a bank you like to see a return on that investment .And when you see all that investment gone at the stroke of a pen you wonder why you invested in the first place isnt that right fozzie.

    So can i ask you to explain in detail as your costomer and one who contributes to your employment why you have taking a ship i invested all that time in as it was the best ship to fulfill my needs to being after the kronos patch to being the worst ship in its class that would be most understanding of you.

    As it is i am questioning weather it is worth investing time and money in a game which can change things to the extent that all that time and money has been a complete waste .

    I would like to understand the reasoning behind making the proweler from being the most sutible ship for my needs in its class to being the worst

    (because if it is just that the prowler was being used more and so you nerfed it and boosted the others coz they were not then if that is your reasoning then im quitting the game as i see then there is no point in investying time and money in this game anymore if that your reason )

    I would like to hear your reasons please FOZZIe


    Same issue here so...
    Bravo!


    Yes - its obvious why the prowler was more used, like any sane person wouldn't use it in WHs.

    But of late, so many Minmatar ships have been dumped on, its akin to being told to spend more money for time and retrain to whatever. The old vets say train for everything and avoid the nerfs ... but I would rather max out one thing and get best use. Am I that different? Kiting is more or less over, its going to be so situaltional its hard to imagine it ever existed. MJD on everything means run away all the time.

    Completely bemused that the prowler got the ****** stick, and it took us to 'moan' it back a little. Sadly - a very little.
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #489 - 2014-05-28 13:16:53 UTC
    Dude, from nothing to racial industrial 5 takes, what, 2 weeks at the most? Train it. You already have transport ships. All you need is the racial skill. Stop being such a cry-baby.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
    Rab See
    Stellar Dynamics
    #490 - 2014-05-28 13:19:51 UTC
    Soldarius wrote:
    Dude, from nothing to racial industrial 5 takes, what, 2 weeks at the most? Train it. You already have transport ships. All you need is the racial skill. Stop being such a cry-baby.


    tldr.

    or read it.
    Maximus Aerelius
    PROPHET OF ENIGMA
    #491 - 2014-05-28 13:45:58 UTC
    Atherios Lincestor wrote:
    Sweet Times wrote:
    CCP FOZZIE i would like you to respond to my question please

    As a relative new player to eve when i invest weeks and months training to use a particular ship is this taken into account when you make changes to the ships.

    Its like when you invest in a bank you like to see a return on that investment .And when you see all that investment gone at the stroke of a pen you wonder why you invested in the first place isnt that right fozzie.

    So can i ask you to explain in detail as your costomer and one who contributes to your employment why you have taking a ship i invested all that time in as it was the best ship to fulfill my needs to being after the kronos patch to being the worst ship in its class that would be most understanding of you.

    As it is i am questioning weather it is worth investing time and money in a game which can change things to the extent that all that time and money has been a complete waste .

    I would like to understand the reasoning behind making the proweler from being the most sutible ship for my needs in its class to being the worst

    (because if it is just that the prowler was being used more and so you nerfed it and boosted the others coz they were not then if that is your reasoning then im quitting the game as i see then there is no point in investying time and money in this game anymore if that your reason )

    I would like to hear your reasons please FOZZIe


    Same issue here so...
    Bravo!


    I'm sorry but the Prowler just got buffed not nerfed! Let's look at what it IS getting:

    1 x EXTRA Low (Total 3 Lows) so more tank, more cargo hold, faster align with 3 x Inertia Stabs II's
    Full T2 resists
    +5% Warp Speed per Transport Ships Bonus level
    +250m3 Cargo Hold
    -5m Signature Radius
    -0.04 align time
    +418.75 Cap
    +94 Armour
    +22 Hull
    +5 CPU

    While all other BR's can now fit a Covert Cyno and Probe Launcher after Kronos they can't utilise a 3rd Low Slot.

    You need to HTFU, learn to adapt (especially with the AGILE deployments that are coming every 6 weeks) and to look at the positive. You haven't had your ship ripped out from under you, it's just had everything around it changed a little along with getting some very nice buffs itself.

    Put it this way: I trained 6 Chars to fly BR and DST for Minmatar and then I was on L5 for Gallente just before they made Amarr have the biggest cargoholds...did I whine, hell no. You just adapt, use what you have and get around to multi-racial eventually.

    Adapt or die quietly please, some of us are trying to work out how best to work with the changes. Big smile

    [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
    Gilentajsa
    Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
    #492 - 2014-05-30 18:44:25 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Replaced the useless tanking bonus with +5% warp speed per level. This means that at Transport Ships level 5 they go 7.5au/s.
  • Their tanks still aren't anything to write home about, but we have given them full T2 resists.
    • [/list]




    PROWLER

    Minmatar Industrial Bonus per level:
    +5% Cargo Capacity
    +5% Velocity

    Transport Ships Bonus per level:
    +5% Warp Speed (was the useless tanking bonus)


    The tanking bonus really is not useless.

    Seriously, I have just recently realized how beastly the Prowlers booster tank is. I've been volleyed a couple of times while doing things I'd rather not discuss at other peoples POSes. I can go from 1/3 shields to full in two cycles (which btw, comes in extremely handy and is done before you can even cloak as you warp off the tower).

    I wish I had learned of the value of the Prowler + ASB earlier (probably be significantly richer if I had).

    s
    Irregessa
    Obfuscation and Reflections
    #493 - 2014-05-30 19:11:49 UTC
    Maximus Aerelius wrote:

    While all other BR's can now fit a Covert Cyno and Probe Launcher after Kronos they can't utilise a 3rd Low Slot.


    The Viator already has 3 lows, and the Prorator has 4. I'm not sure where you are getting this "can't utilise a 3rd Low Slot" from. They already can, and will continue to do so.


    Players shouldn't have to HTFU and adapt, not when the developers are revamping all the races' BRs at the same time. The idea should be that different BRs offer different advantages, depending on how they are used. It doesn't matter how much the Prowler is changed if the Viator is as good or better in all situations.
    Gridloader
    Limitless Capabilities
    #494 - 2014-05-31 09:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gridloader
    the best thing is when DEV saying about useless bonuses/roles.... and giving cloaking ship immunity to scanning its cargo.... double facepalm

    EDIT: Note to self.... read at least 25 pages before you write something
    Kodacrome
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #495 - 2014-05-31 21:20:23 UTC
    Vlad Draculesti wrote:
    I still think they should be immune to bubbles.

    We have the "technology" to put that on a t3 cruiser and an interceptor but not the ship whose soul purpose is running blockades?

    What harm would it really do? If anything it would allow small groups to be able to more reliably operate in 0.0 where now they don't bother.

    What good is it to ninja mine in the new t2 mining frig if I have no way of hauling the materials out of 0.0?





    Hits the nail on the head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Kodacrome
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #496 - 2014-05-31 21:27:43 UTC
    Soleil Fournier wrote:
    Blockaid runners should be able to.....run blockaids. That seems like a pre-requisite for the ship. But yet they can't do that, and its bothersome that the name/description of the ship does not match up with the practical gameplay of the ship.

    2 options for resolution:

    1) Rename to 'covert haulers' (or something more cleaver).
    2) Rebalance them around running blockaids...which involve beating bubbles.

    Thanks



    EXACTLY !!!!!!
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #497 - 2014-05-31 23:09:13 UTC
    Kodacrome wrote:
    Vlad Draculesti wrote:
    I still think they should be immune to bubbles.

    We have the "technology" to put that on a t3 cruiser and an interceptor but not the ship whose soul purpose is running blockades?

    What harm would it really do? If anything it would allow small groups to be able to more reliably operate in 0.0 where now they don't bother.

    What good is it to ninja mine in the new t2 mining frig if I have no way of hauling the materials out of 0.0?





    Hits the nail on the head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    How would you stop such a hauler? It would be overpowered.
    Rroff
    Antagonistic Tendencies
    #498 - 2014-06-01 00:34:40 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Kodacrome wrote:
    Vlad Draculesti wrote:
    I still think they should be immune to bubbles.

    We have the "technology" to put that on a t3 cruiser and an interceptor but not the ship whose soul purpose is running blockades?

    What harm would it really do? If anything it would allow small groups to be able to more reliably operate in 0.0 where now they don't bother.

    What good is it to ninja mine in the new t2 mining frig if I have no way of hauling the materials out of 0.0?





    Hits the nail on the head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    How would you stop such a hauler? It would be overpowered.


    Full bubble immunity would unfortunatly be completely unbalanced but I wouldn't be against a halfway measure in that blockade runners were immune to being pulled into a bubble but still can't warp out of one once they are inside one.
    Maximus Aerelius
    PROPHET OF ENIGMA
    #499 - 2014-06-02 12:22:17 UTC
    Irregessa wrote:
    Maximus Aerelius wrote:

    While all other BR's can now fit a Covert Cyno and Probe Launcher after Kronos they can't utilise a 3rd Low Slot.


    The Viator already has 3 lows, and the Prorator has 4. I'm not sure where you are getting this "can't utilise a 3rd Low Slot" from. They already can, and will continue to do so.


    Players shouldn't have to HTFU and adapt, not when the developers are revamping all the races' BRs at the same time. The idea should be that different BRs offer different advantages, depending on how they are used. It doesn't matter how much the Prowler is changed if the Viator is as good or better in all situations.


    And both of those ships have most of their HP in their Hull...bound to have more low slots. Yeah it was a misquote but doesn't change the fact that the Prowler is getting an extra slot! OMGWTFYOLOSWAG Smile

    And so to tank a Prowler you use Mids, Prorator and Viator you need to use the lows, as said above, the HP is in the Hull.

    They still have unique little traits to them and no-ones has been ripped out from under them...FotY isn't so much FotY anymore...good! Maybe we'll see the industrialists and markets pick up on the others a little which is a good thing.

    [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
    Lucy Riraille
    Taxeva
    #500 - 2014-06-04 12:57:01 UTC
    So, finally ALL the other races got the 2nd hi-slot, as this will make gallente, amarr and caldari cloaky haulers evenly usable for covert cyno ops, not only the minmatar prowler...
    I would call that bugfixing, not balancing....
    As for the rest of the changes.....

    The industrial re-doing was pretty useful with now specialized industrials to fit different roles. What do you think about a similar variety of roles for tech2 haulers?