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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#2901 - 2014-05-24 13:33:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.


More Lies.

.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2902 - 2014-05-24 14:58:33 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.


More Lies.


That's absolutely true.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#2903 - 2014-05-24 16:34:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.


More Lies.


That's absolutely true.


I see what you did there.

.
Frying Doom
#2904 - 2014-05-24 16:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah she literally showed us a picture in case words are hard. Structures are the next big project (that's POS, outposts, deployables)

Why do I feel like we have been here before?

Let me guess the next thing we will hear is that the team that will be doing this, cannot start yet as they are working on something else, like crime watch.


Well given what Seagull's job is, I'd say that she's in a position to know.

If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.

What a strange word for you to use. Lie.

Are you saying that CCP has lied to its customers before?

If your allegations are true, we would be pretty stupid to take their word for it again wouldn't we?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2905 - 2014-05-24 18:30:10 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah she literally showed us a picture in case words are hard. Structures are the next big project (that's POS, outposts, deployables)

Why do I feel like we have been here before?

Let me guess the next thing we will hear is that the team that will be doing this, cannot start yet as they are working on something else, like crime watch.


Well given what Seagull's job is, I'd say that she's in a position to know.

If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.

What a strange word for you to use. Lie.

Are you saying that CCP has lied to it's customers before?

If your allegations are true, we would be pretty stupid to take their word for it again wouldn't we?

its*
Frying Doom
#2906 - 2014-05-25 12:15:18 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah she literally showed us a picture in case words are hard. Structures are the next big project (that's POS, outposts, deployables)

Why do I feel like we have been here before?

Let me guess the next thing we will hear is that the team that will be doing this, cannot start yet as they are working on something else, like crime watch.


Well given what Seagull's job is, I'd say that she's in a position to know.

If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.

What a strange word for you to use. Lie.

Are you saying that CCP has lied to it's customers before?

If your allegations are true, we would be pretty stupid to take their word for it again wouldn't we?

its*

Thank you for that, that is what happens when you write something late at night like I am again.

But I should point out your own error in failing to read my signature LOL.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2907 - 2014-05-25 16:19:01 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah she literally showed us a picture in case words are hard. Structures are the next big project (that's POS, outposts, deployables)

Why do I feel like we have been here before?

Let me guess the next thing we will hear is that the team that will be doing this, cannot start yet as they are working on something else, like crime watch.


Well given what Seagull's job is, I'd say that she's in a position to know.

If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.

What a strange word for you to use. Lie.

Are you saying that CCP has lied to its customers before?

If your allegations are true, we would be pretty stupid to take their word for it again wouldn't we?


No, that's something you decided to invent. To the best of my knowledge, CCP were completely truthful during my CSM term. Obviously they immediately didn't say everything they know, because that's the business they're in, and some of them said a couple of things that they turned out to be wrong about or changed their minds on later (eg: freighter rigs). But no deliberate deception that I am aware of.

With specific respect to Seagull's plan, if it's a deception, even a self-deception, then it's a pretty elaborate and well supported one. I think it would probably be less effort to just do what she said than to fake it to this extent.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2908 - 2014-05-26 14:53:38 UTC
So still a dead horse, gotcha.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2909 - 2014-05-26 15:49:51 UTC
Malc: They're working in structures, look they even made a picture to make it easy to understand

Frying: Lies, all lies! Every piece of good news is a lie because I'm literally addictde to drama and I need a scandal like a junkie needs a wrap of heroin

Malc: No they're not lying, I have every reason to believe they mean it.

Brooks Puntai: herpa derp that must mean they're lying because I'd rather biomass than ever admit any piece of good news into my cramped cerebellum.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2910 - 2014-05-26 17:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Malcanis wrote:
Malc: They're working in structures, look they even made a picture to make it easy to understand

Frying: Lies, all lies! Every piece of good news is a lie because I'm literally addictde to drama and I need a scandal like a junkie needs a wrap of ******

Malc: No they're not lying, I have every reason to believe they mean it.

Brooks Puntai: herpa derp that must mean they're lying because I'd rather biomass than ever admit any piece of good news into my cramped cerebellum.


Actually its more out of history of dealing with CCP. They always talk a good game and even give hints on what they work on, HOWEVER it rarely pans out. So I'll believe it when I see it. I mean it isn't like this idea has been around for 8 years...Oh wait it has.

If you want to believe them then so be it, and I hope you are right, but I still have my doubts...

E: They CBA to change the model on the Nag to add an extra turret. So them completely revamping POSs, which they seem to not wanna do, shouldn't be surprising that people have skepticism.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2911 - 2014-05-26 19:21:52 UTC
They haven't even solved world hunger either.

Also: Nag works just fine as it is, even if that wasn't a ship balancing/art team issue.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2912 - 2014-05-27 04:52:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
They haven't even solved world hunger either.

Also: Nag works just fine as it is, even if that wasn't a ship balancing/art team issue.


They haven't even made a "Logout" button yet, but I'm guessing they showed their volunteer PR staff a picture or maybe a graph on that aswell. World hunger is abit out of their league, also pointless analogy.

Nag just shows they are more willing to take the easy/lazy way out instead of the right way.

Back to the original topic.

Has CCP even released that "picture" to the public or was that only a CSM only thing? Last comment I've heard about it was a year ago in this thread, and ofc your little "they showed us a picture guyz!" which doesn't bode well to their development of it.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2913 - 2014-05-27 05:16:57 UTC
Well they showed it to a few carefully chosen people at a private little event informally named the eve keynote at this years fanfest

Obviously they didn't want to make any kind of public commitment

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2914 - 2014-05-27 05:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Touche

E: Nvm rewatched it, no wonder I missed it, it was useless in regards to POSs. Since it didn't actually state any details on it, and only said "We will be working on structures". Heard that song and dance before. Was hoping the CSM actually got more information on it, guess not.

So yes you were right, I was wrong. Still doesn't take away from the fact that the dead horse is still in fact dead and will be for some time. Without any reassurance or details on timeframe and plan it is still just very vague hollow words from CCP, which have been said for years.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Frying Doom
#2915 - 2014-05-27 07:19:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah she literally showed us a picture in case words are hard. Structures are the next big project (that's POS, outposts, deployables)

Why do I feel like we have been here before?

Let me guess the next thing we will hear is that the team that will be doing this, cannot start yet as they are working on something else, like crime watch.


Well given what Seagull's job is, I'd say that she's in a position to know.

If you're determined to believe that everything CCP say is a lie then I can't stop you.

What a strange word for you to use. Lie.

Are you saying that CCP has lied to its customers before?

If your allegations are true, we would be pretty stupid to take their word for it again wouldn't we?


No, that's something you decided to invent. To the best of my knowledge, CCP were completely truthful during my CSM term. Obviously they immediately didn't say everything they know, because that's the business they're in, and some of them said a couple of things that they turned out to be wrong about or changed their minds on later (eg: freighter rigs). But no deliberate deception that I am aware of.

With specific respect to Seagull's plan, if it's a deception, even a self-deception, then it's a pretty elaborate and well supported one. I think it would probably be less effort to just do what she said than to fake it to this extent.

Strange, I re-read the posts and it was you who used the word lie, not I and you seemed to use it an awful lot again in
"Malc: They're working in structures, look they even made a picture to make it easy to understand

Frying: Lies, all lies! Every piece of good news is a lie because I'm literally addictde to drama and I need a scandal like a junkie needs a wrap of ******

Malc: No they're not lying, I have every reason to believe they mean it.

Brooks Puntai: herpa derp that must mean they're lying because I'd rather biomass than ever admit any piece of good news into my cramped cerebellum."

As I said strange choice of words YOU chose. No one chose them for you. This time round you brought up TRUTH, you really must have a trust issue with CCP, that you are refusing to acknowledge.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Absinyth
Tranquility Lost
#2916 - 2014-05-27 07:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Absinyth
Perhaps consider this fresh approach to POS's:

1) Take time to locate code and bugs to improve upon and fix, respectively

2) Repair features that's realistic and do-able.

3) Once all the improvements that is capable of doing is fully completed, fully tested, and implemented in production then start work on a brand new POS system for a second-tier Starbase.

This would allow to spend the needed time to fix major failures of the POS without redesigning the entire code structure. Then you could keep the POS's and with their limitations in place indefinitely but then offer people a new type of POS they can upgrade to if they want. The new POS, modular or not, could offer increased benefits over a regular POS or Tech 1 POS if you will.

There is no worry of any compatibility issues and CCP could come out with the new POS structures little at a time that is more manageable while starting from the ground up. Little by little the changes to old POS's would decrease while changes to the new POS's increase. People could then chose which tiered POS they would like to have.

Also, isn't the problem with the tower itself and not with the anchorable structures? If this is true then the tiered system will only apply to the control towers and any newly created anchorable structures.

In summary, fix major problems with POS's then develop new code from the ground up to do what CCP wants to do with POS's and offer both types of POS to players. That way the old POS's (current POS's) aren't as bad but the cool new features are all in the new POS, like being more modular.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2917 - 2014-05-27 12:05:25 UTC
Absinyth wrote:
Perhaps consider this fresh approach to POS's:

1) Take time to locate code and bugs to improve upon and fix, respectively



This is the stumbling block, since the code is uncommented and no one who wrote it is still at CCP.

So essentially what CCP have to do is map all the things that POS code does now, and it does some strange and unpredictable things and interacts with lots of other code block in excitingly unexpcted ways. And one of the biggest points of interaction is with the corps/roles code block which is itself also uncommented and ancient, making the problem exponentially larger.

One of the reasons that POS have been left for so long is that they touch so many other code blocks. As each code legacy code block is rewritten with nicely laid out, properly commented and neatly modular code, it becomes that much easier to fix all the remaining legacy code blocks that interact with it. Science and Industry was a massive project, as you can probably work out for yourself when you think about it for a few moments. Having that fixed will make fixing Corps & Roles easier, and when they're both fixed, the POS/Outpost rewrite will be more managable than it is now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Draconian Maass
Diadem Enterprise
#2918 - 2014-05-30 05:17:05 UTC
I am just going to say the same thing as everyone else the pos system sucks. Simple. Make the game better and fix it. I need to be able to have more than 7 people in a corp who have stuff that is secure. I would like to have that 3 hour torture of moving a pos ended without me having to kill my self in the middle. I know it can be done and everyone says they need to here it from the community so here you go. Please fix pos and pos mechanics asap. Thanks!
Temba Ronin
#2919 - 2014-07-14 18:14:20 UTC
Rewriting the POS code is going to be hard and take a lot of effort on the part of CCP. I get that. I hope they get that it should be done hard or not. We the paying customers deserve to have it fixed. If the original programmers no longer work at CCP, ok move forward with new people, do the work, release the small incremental progress reports when possible, but really do it.

If CCP does not listen to this consistent request from players, I fear they are listening for easy things they want to fix anyway so they can say "Look we fixed what you asked us to fix!", at least that is how it feels out here amongst the rank and file player base. Malcanis has had first person contact with CCP devs so I believe he has a pov we others do not. I trust his ability to separate wheat from chaff, so let's not chew him up for sharing his observations and conclusions.

POS Gunners should get killmail credit! In this killmail based game it's unacceptable to continue on as things currently are. Rewrite the POS code and solve many ills CCP!

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Cecilia Smunt
Doomheim
#2920 - 2014-08-06 16:00:36 UTC
POS love bump, and an acknowledgement of more good points both in favor of and against the way CCP has dealt with the POS issue so far.
Understandably, due to the nature of the legacy coding and the lack of anyone who originally wrote it still being accessible/working for CCP, there will be some delays and some cautionary steps forward so as not to totally break something that does at least "work", however those factors in and of themselves do not lessen the haste that we as players feel should be implemented in fixing/replacing them.

o/
Celly Smunt