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[Kronos] Mordu's Legion

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1101 - 2014-05-25 16:51:24 UTC
Oh I agree, a Vindi has near perfect damage application. It has two bonuses for it after all, webs to keep the target still, and then a tracking bonus, for a weapon system that already has very good tracking. Without the tracking bonus, the Vindi would still be applying almost all DPS to BS sized targets, with it, it can also apply most of it's DPS to BC's, Cruisers, Some frigs, and even Heavy/Sentry drones.

The Barghest can't even apply it's torp DPS to a BS effectively.. A Cruiser or Drone? HA.

The Vindi is the be-all, end-all for a Blaster Boat. The NM is the be-all, end-all for a Laser boat. The Mach is the be-all, end-all for an Arty boat.. The RS used to be the be-all, end-all for a drone boat (before the tracking bonused drone hulls)..

The Barghest is not even close for a missile boat. The Navy Raven still takes that top spot. It's not even a close fight. All the other pirate hulls, less the RS now as it's a mixed hull, are kings of their weapon system. This one isn't, not even close..I'd put the CNR, SNI, and standard Typhoon all ahead of it for most uses.. Maybe even a Navy Typhoon too with it's much higher DPS numbers.

Navy ships are supposed to be more tanky, but less powerful than their pirate counterparts (again, less the RS which has no real normal counterpart).. but this one isn't.. It's a shame, cause the frig and cruiser are GREAT.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1102 - 2014-05-25 16:58:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
In paper the ship does decent DPS, but in practice, against anything other than caps, or without a Vindi beside it keeping it still, it's more likely to work out to be 600 rather than 1600.

Let's not turn this into a Vindicator vs. Barghest debate... (or guns vs. missiles)

A railgun-equipped Vindicator can still hit out to 60km+ in excess of 1000dps. If that Vindicator webs you or has zero transversal - you're taking 100% (or more) of that damage. That will never happen with any missile system (regardless of hull) without rigors, flares and target painters. And speed can easily negate a huge portion of missile damage. Guns and missiles are different, so let's just leave the comparison there.

Now if we want to look at a more reasonable comparison, let's take the Raven Navy Issue and Typhoon Fleet Issue. The Barghest does 9.375% more damage than the Raven, but loses a mid tank slot, capacitor recharge and the 25% explosion radius bonus in the process. That 25% explosion radius alone easily offsets the 9.375% loss in damage, because it's applied against both the target signature and velocity. As for the Typhoon, it only does 6.06% less damage - but has a pair of high slots which can be used for turrets or utility - so the dps is actually higher. And this is before drones. The Raven gets 100mbit of bandwidth and the Typhoon gets a whopping 125mbit, so that's +33% and +66% more damage respectively.

So in terms of damage application, the Raven trumps the Barghest - and in terms of raw damage, the Typhoon also trumps the Barghest. The Barghest will be faster and to be sure it also has the missile velocity bonus. This only offers a benefit at longer ranges, though (where more dps can be applied to fewer lost volleys); at close range, it won't make any difference at all. With a 8-6-6 slot layout it doesn't necessarily make it a strong shield or armor contender, either.



Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage#Damage_Equation

(sure, it's all multiplied into the equation, but it only has an effect once)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1103 - 2014-05-25 16:59:54 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Navy ships are supposed to be more tanky, but less powerful than their pirate counterparts (again, less the RS which has no real normal counterpart).. but this one isn't.. It's a shame, cause the frig and cruiser are GREAT.

Why does this all feel strangely familiar... It's almost like we've been down this exact path before with another Pirate class. I can't shake the feeling that this fate has befallen another Pirate battleship... I must be thinking of something else. And a different dev...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1104 - 2014-05-25 17:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

No, this incorrect. If you're already below a target's signature radius with the explosion radius, this gets applied to explosion velocity. This is why rigors are more powerful than flares, because flares only effect explosion velocity - and nothing else. The rule of thumb for missiles is:

T1: rigor I, rigor I, rigor I ... T1-T2 mix: rigor II, rigor I, rigor I ... T2: rigor II, rigor II, flare II

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1105 - 2014-05-25 17:04:46 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage#Damage_Equation

(sure, it's all multiplied into the equation, but it only has an effect once)

Makes me think what we need is a scripted target painter..
One script for target sig, and one script to negate it's velocity.. like a tracking computer. Consider it painting ahead of the target to the ship flies into the missile rather than it just hitting the back as it keeps flying away..

If missiles had the same election of mods as turrets, there probably wouldn't even be an issue with the ship. Missiles have one that affects sig, that's it.. Turrets have Sig, tracking, and range.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1106 - 2014-05-25 17:06:47 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Makes me think what we need is a scripted target painter..

What we need is a passive, low-slot Ballistic Enhancer that provides 20% velocity, 10% explosion radius and 10% explosion velocity.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1107 - 2014-05-25 17:10:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

No, this incorrect. If you're already below a target's signature radius with the explosion radius, this gets applied to explosion velocity. This is why rigors are more powerful than flares, because flares only effect explosion velocity - and nothing else. The rule of thumb for missiles is:

T1: rigor I, rigor I, rigor I ... T1-T2 mix: rigor II, rigor I, rigor I ... T2: rigor II, rigor II, flare II



Citation?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1108 - 2014-05-25 17:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why should the Barghest have crazy point bonuses AND crazy application bonuses? The stats i've seen for it don't seem to be bad at all.. I mean its not pulling 1600 dps or whatever but it seems completely reasonable considering what else the ship can do.


You may not believe it and even I was highly in doubt but my torpedo Rattlesnake was showing 1688dps with inferno rage torpedos and 2x Ogre II.

But,
I don't have the special Gallente drone damage skill at V (yet) and torpedos struggle with doing any damage at all.

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stoicfaux
#1109 - 2014-05-25 17:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

No, this incorrect. If you're already below a target's signature radius with the explosion radius, this gets applied to explosion velocity. This is why rigors are more powerful than flares, because flares only effect explosion velocity - and nothing else. The rule of thumb for missiles is:

T1: rigor I, rigor I, rigor I ... T1-T2 mix: rigor II, rigor I, rigor I ... T2: rigor II, rigor II, flare II



Citation?

There are two parts to the missile formula. Missile explosion radius and target sig size affect both of them.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

(S/E * Ve/Vt) is the crux. A 15% rigor means you do this:
S/E * Ve/Vt * 1/.85
A 15% flare does this:
S/E * Ve/Vt * 1.15

Trouble is that 1/.85 = 1.176. So a rigor is actually providing a 17.6% benefit to the flare's 15%.

edit: So 1 point of rigor provides more value than 1 point of flare, so the only time to use a Flare I is if you cannot fit a rigor I. The only time to use a Flare II is if you cannot fit a Rigor II, since the Flare's 20% bonus is less than a Rigor II's effective 25% bonus and greater then the Rigor I's effective 17.6% bonus.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1110 - 2014-05-25 17:36:10 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Explosion radius has nothing to do with target velocity reducing damage. That's what explosion velocity is for. Explosion radius only deals with the reduction of damage by having a smaller sig radius.

No, this incorrect. If you're already below a target's signature radius with the explosion radius, this gets applied to explosion velocity. This is why rigors are more powerful than flares, because flares only effect explosion velocity - and nothing else. The rule of thumb for missiles is:

T1: rigor I, rigor I, rigor I ... T1-T2 mix: rigor II, rigor I, rigor I ... T2: rigor II, rigor II, flare II



Citation?

There are two parts to the missile formula. Missile explosion radius and target sig size affect both of them.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

(S/E * Ve/Vt) is the crux. A 15% rigor means you do this:
S/E * Ve/Vt * 1/.85
A 15% flare does this:
S/E * Ve/Vt * 1.15

Trouble is that 1/.85 = 1.176. So a rigor is actually providing a 17.6% benefit to the flare's 15%.

edit: So 1 point of rigor provides more value than 1 point of flare, so the only time to use a Flare I is never. The only time to use a Flare II is if you cannot fit a Rigor II, since the Flare's 20% bonus is less than a Rigor II's effective 25% bonus and greater then the Rigor I's effective 17.6% bonus.



Heh. would have helped if I'd done more than skimmed it. Though the damage reduction factor bit is just nasty.

It's not that it has 2 effects. It's just that it can be of a magnitude that can eliminate the other one.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1111 - 2014-05-25 17:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Heh. would have helped if I'd done more than skimmed it. Though the damage reduction factor bit is just nasty. It's not that it has 2 effects. It's just that it can be of a magnitude that can eliminate the other one.

stoicfaux already summed it up better. But yes, very nasty. I'll throw up a chart showing various munitions later.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1112 - 2014-05-25 20:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Well, I spent the last hour or so running a fairly comprehensive analysis. As suspected, the Barghest is nothing more than a phantom rapid heavy missile launcher platform - which probably shouldn't come as any big surprise seeing as which dev had a hand in designing it. The short version is that even despite having more paper dps, the closest the Barghest can come to achieving this is about 64.1% applied dps using Faction torpedos (+5 implants, 2x T2 rigors, 1x T1 flare and 2x target painters). I think if you ran 2x stasis webs in addition you could probably achieve the theoretical 1292.38 dps that I calculated using standard T2 launchers and T2 BCUs. I'm not seeing how a 3-slot shield tank is even going to be viable without supporting rigs, and having to drop rigors and flares basically kills your damage application. I guess the extra speed and low slot is good in hindsight, because you're going to need it for an armor fit in PvP.

For raw damage application, the Typhoon, Navy Raven Issue and Typhoon Fleet issue will all out-DPS the Barghest - and this is before we even take drones or the extra turrets on the Typhoon Fleet Issue into consideration. I didn't have the heart to run the comparison with the Golem in the mix, because I'm fairly certain it's going to trump everything...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1113 - 2014-05-25 20:35:37 UTC
BARGHEST REDUX
Caldari Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to missile damage
Gallente Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity (-50% penalty to missile flight time)
25% bonus to missile explosion radius and velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 6M, 7L(+1); 0 turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1114 - 2014-05-25 20:43:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BARGHEST REDUX
Caldari Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to missile damage
Gallente Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity (-50% penalty to missile flight time)
25% bonus to missile explosion radius and velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 6M, 7L(+1); 0 turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370

I'm still more than willing to Drop that lost High Slot from the ship.. Forfeit it to get the extra role bonus. It really doesn't NEED an extra low or mid.. It does NEED either more DPS and/or more Applied DPS.

Also, the Explosion Radius and Velocity bonus could be limited to just the BS grade weapons, hell technically they could be limited to just Torps as that's the system where the problem truly lies.. Heavy Missiles hit BS grade targets well, as do Cruise..

Personally I also want more drones.. It's got one of the weakest dronebay/bandwidth of all the Pirate ships.. Should be at least 100mbit. Would also give you something to do with those extra low's if you do Shield tank it.. At least till they finally get around to introducing some kind of missile mods.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1115 - 2014-05-25 20:44:53 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Also, the Explosion Radius and Velocity bonus could be limited to just the BS grade weapons, hell technically they could be limited to just Torps as that's the system where the problem truly lies.. Heavy Missiles hit BS grade targets well, as do Cruise..

I don't have a problem limiting the damage application bonus to cruise missiles and torpedos. I still want my high utility slot, though.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#1116 - 2014-05-25 20:49:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BARGHEST REDUX
Caldari Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to missile damage
Gallente Battleship Bonus per level: 10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity (-50% penalty to missile flight time)
25% bonus to missile explosion radius and velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 6M, 7L(+1); 0 turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370


Agreed, the Mordu's Missile Damage is sadly underwhelming. I found it to be the same with the Frigate. The Cruiser seemed OK. Fitting issues as well. Not much to add here that already hasn't been said.

Mordu's was supposed to be a King of Missiles, just like other Pirate Factions are King of what they do. There's a lot left wanting on these. Unless Proper changes are done... I only see Mordu's ships to be collector's items covered in dust until issues are resolved.

Having only 2 weeks or less of testing on SiSi, hardly gives much time for Analysis and reaction. I'd be shocked if anything was done. If CCP Rise is out sick... You'd think someone else would step up, get on this thread and acknowledge these issue. *Hint Hint* Help a fellow Dev out... right?

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1117 - 2014-05-25 20:51:03 UTC
the whole mordus line still need their tank nerfed ... missile enhancer mods should really have been planned along with them

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sheimi Madaveda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1118 - 2014-05-25 20:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

As for Mordu, most concerns being voiced here are problems inherent in the weapon platforms themselves. Oh and the low PG on the Barghest.

Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png 
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1119 - 2014-05-25 20:55:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
the whole mordus line still need their tank nerfed ... missile enhancer mods should really have been planned along with them



Tank nerfed? You cant be serious....
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1120 - 2014-05-25 20:59:16 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
the whole mordus line still need their tank nerfed ... missile enhancer mods should really have been planned along with them



Tank nerfed? You cant be serious....


just compare its mobility and tank to the other attack lines of ships .... angels/serpentis ....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using