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[Kronos] Blockade Runner Rebalance

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#381 - 2014-05-23 08:48:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Now: Most gankers don't bother with blockade runners, as the risk of finding an empty or low-value cargo BR that's autopiloting is fairly high and is compounded with the risk of a bad drop in the event that it's a high-value cargo BR that's autopiloting.

After removing scan immunity: Gankers will bother with blockade runners, but can only catch those that autopilot/fly improperly. Blockade runner pilots know that to avoid being ganked they can just cloak up. Only really stupid BR pilots autopilot with high-value cargos. Empty and low-value cargos on autopilot are ignored because they can be scanned and the ganker knows it's pointless to kill. High-value cargo autopiloted BRs still present the same risk of bad drops to would-be gankers.

For an individual gank this is true, however for a career ganker drop rates will average out between bad drops & good drops where they get every single valuable item.
So trying to present bad drop rates as a 'risk' for a career ganker really doesn't ring true.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#382 - 2014-05-23 09:08:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I said as much before. I don't have it backwards, both perspectives are correct. It increases risk for empty/low-value cargo hauling, and it decreases risk for high-value hauling.


Not really, it only decreases risk for high value hauling for people doing it AFK. People who aren't afk and cloak up every warp have zero use for scan immunity, so being scan immune is a boon for AFK hauling. At the same time NOT being scan immune allows for empty haulers to AP to wherever they need to be.

Personally I have no issues with people AFKing empty haulers and I DO have issues people getting away with AFKing high value cargo. There is no use for scan immunity on BR that makes sense from a game design point of view.
Gumpy Bitterhawk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2014-05-23 09:21:58 UTC
Can we please do something about the ****** powergrid on the crane? You'll need to train the powergrid skill to lvl5 just to be able to online a mwd on it Ugh
Gumpy Bitterhawk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2014-05-23 09:24:51 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Ok thanks for getting rid of the useless active tanking bonuses.

However, I'm still somewhat miffed at the slot layout differential. Amarr gets lots of lowslots but much less base cargo m3. This assures that it must fill those slots with cargo expanders in order to compete with the hauling capacity of the Caldari BR. Conversely the caldari BR is getting more shield resist tanking, single or double propulsion, or ewar options to save itself with if it doesn't get the cloak activated in time.

Can't you just acknowledge that this class of ships have a role which is independent of racial tanking predilections and slot layout ? A military that would fail to design its ships for their role simply would not last long (Amarr). Please rethink this.


Good luck using the mids on the crane for anything other then a mwd and some resistance plating/ecm
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#385 - 2014-05-23 09:32:04 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I said as much before. I don't have it backwards, both perspectives are correct. It increases risk for empty/low-value cargo hauling, and it decreases risk for high-value hauling.


Not really, it only decreases risk for high value hauling for people doing it AFK. People who aren't afk and cloak up every warp have zero use for scan immunity, so being scan immune is a boon for AFK hauling. At the same time NOT being scan immune allows for empty haulers to AP to wherever they need to be.

Personally I have no issues with people AFKing empty haulers and I DO have issues people getting away with AFKing high value cargo. There is no use for scan immunity on BR that makes sense from a game design point of view.

So we're agreed.
I forgot to qualify that I was talking about autopiloting/AFK there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Oxide Ammar
#386 - 2014-05-23 09:39:17 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So we're agreed.
I forgot to qualify that I was talking about autopiloting/AFK there.


If autopiloting/afking irritating you that much, then you should ask for it to be removed from game not scan immunity..jee

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2014-05-23 10:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Oxide Ammar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So we're agreed.
I forgot to qualify that I was talking about autopiloting/AFK there.


If autopiloting/afking irritating you that much, then you should ask for it to be removed from game not scan immunity..jee

It doesn't irritate me at all, stop making dumb inferences.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Oxide Ammar
#388 - 2014-05-23 10:57:08 UTC
You have a cause which is to remove the scan immunity from BR so you can be freely out of gamble risk ganking autopilots BRs left and right, and I have the whole right to interfere and take the other side to defend the scan immunity because it has it usefulness in particular cases...and NO it's not afk piloting 50 plexes one of them, you just damn thick to comprehend.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2014-05-23 11:30:19 UTC
"You're too damn thick to comprehend" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#390 - 2014-05-23 11:46:06 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
You have a cause which is to remove the scan immunity from BR so you can be freely out of gamble risk ganking autopilots BRs left and right, and I have the whole right to interfere and take the other side to defend the scan immunity because it has it usefulness in particular cases...and NO it's not afk piloting 50 plexes one of them, you just damn thick to comprehend.


And as always I will point out that the blockade runner will STILL be unscannable without this scan immunity. All the scan immunity is is an automatic and impossible to beat safety net for protecting bad pilots from themselves. We simply want a chance to scan a ship that can choose to be unscannable.
Oxide Ammar
#391 - 2014-05-23 11:50:40 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"You're too damn thick to comprehend" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.


Cop out ? lol ..If someone is coping out it's you who want it the easy way to gank, what hilarious response. Pls continue deflecting that and point it back to us post after post.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#392 - 2014-05-23 11:59:30 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"You're too damn thick to comprehend" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.


Cop out ? lol ..If someone is coping out it's you who want it the easy way to gank, what hilarious response. Pls continue deflecting that and point it back to us post after post.


There is nothing easy about ganking a ship that will align like a frigate, warps cloacked and warps as fast as an interceptor. What we ask for is to at least be able to scan the ships we do manage to lock.
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2014-05-23 13:01:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rena'Thras wrote:
The change doesn't do a lot to super help BR pilots. All it does is increase risk to gankers. Removing it doesn't make the BRs better off, nor does it particularly weaken them. All it does is help gankers lower their risk and increase their reward

Now: Most gankers don't bother with blockade runners, as the risk of finding an empty or low-value cargo BR that's autopiloting is fairly high and is compounded with the risk of a bad drop in the event that it's a high-value cargo BR that's autopiloting.

After removing scan immunity: Gankers will bother with blockade runners, but can only catch those that autopilot/fly improperly. Blockade runner pilots know that to avoid being ganked they can just cloak up. Only really stupid BR pilots autopilot with high-value cargos. Empty and low-value cargos on autopilot are ignored because they can be scanned and the ganker knows it's pointless to kill. High-value cargo autopiloted BRs still present the same risk of bad drops to would-be gankers.



Answer this question:

What is the risk to gankers if scan immunity is removed?

.

Also, here is how I read your post:

Now: Gankers have a huge risk when attacking a BR - maybe it has good cargo and they get a win. Maybe it's empty and they lose their ganking Catalysts for nothing.

After: Gankers will have always know if the BR is worth killing and will kill those they can profit off of while leaving the empty ones alone as there's no profit. Gankers have no risk.

.

So I ask again:

What is the risk to gankers if scan immunity is removed?

Can you answer this question or not?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#394 - 2014-05-23 13:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rena'Thras wrote:


Answer this question:

What is the risk to gankers if scan immunity is removed?



The exact same as any other gank. The only difference will be that the blockade runner has to be flown badly in order to even lock it. Then we need to get a scan before it warps and then we need to look at the scan results and if it is worth it then gank it. By this time the blockade runner will often be either landing on the out gate or is in the next system warping away.

Right now gankers rely upon pure luck and just like the lottery almost every blockade runner you can catch isnt worth ganking. You are not adding risk you are making it purely based upon luck and you will lose money in the long term.
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#395 - 2014-05-23 15:14:38 UTC
The cargo scan immunity is one of the things that make the blockade runner unique imo. It gives it a personality that is different than just - agile, fast, cloaky vs slow, tough, large hold (DST) that most other ships in eve has. I really like the fleet hanger idea CCP proposed for DST. It really makes that ship have niche applications just like having the cargo scan immunity and covert ops cloak gives the BR.

Please preserve the cargo scan immunity on the BR for this reason. If you autopilot an inherently weak ship like a BR you deserve to get popped. If you fly it well, the scan immunity only gives you a benefit imo and there is no convincing argument to take that away.

With the newly proposed industry changes, CCP is introducing clear benefits to moving an industrial base of operation once in a while, for those indy players out there. If someone wanted to do so and move the occasional high value BPO, I think the BR should be the ship of choice. Taking away the cargo scan immunity, there is no reason why such a player should pick a BR vs a covert op frigate for example.

At the same time, gankers have the mystery element on how kind the loot fairy will be if take the effort to pop a BR which also adds a unique gameplay element. Let's please not make all ships generic.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#396 - 2014-05-23 15:44:37 UTC
Jatok Reknar wrote:
The cargo scan immunity is one of the things that make the blockade runner unique imo. It gives it a personality that is different than just - agile, fast, cloaky vs slow, tough, large hold (DST) that most other ships in eve has. I really like the fleet hanger idea CCP proposed for DST. It really makes that ship have niche applications just like having the cargo scan immunity and covert ops cloak gives the BR.

Please preserve the cargo scan immunity on the BR for this reason. If you autopilot an inherently weak ship like a BR you deserve to get popped. If you fly it well, the scan immunity only gives you a benefit imo and there is no convincing argument to take that away.

With the newly proposed industry changes, CCP is introducing clear benefits to moving an industrial base of operation once in a while, for those indy players out there. If someone wanted to do so and move the occasional high value BPO, I think the BR should be the ship of choice. Taking away the cargo scan immunity, there is no reason why such a player should pick a BR vs a covert op frigate for example.

At the same time, gankers have the mystery element on how kind the loot fairy will be if take the effort to pop a BR which also adds a unique gameplay element. Let's please not make all ships generic.




No, what makes the blockade runner unique is the fact it can fit a cov ops cloak, align like a frigate and warp like an intercepter. These things allow it to be the only hauler that cannot be caught when flown well in high sec.

The scan immunity is not needed and is simply an unneeded and imbalanced safety net for bad pilots.
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#397 - 2014-05-23 15:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jatok Reknar
Sorry, I disagree. And BRs are used in low and null as well - not just high sec.

Without the scan immunity, a BR becomes too much like a covert ops frigate with a larger cargo hold.

Edit : With the warp speed low slow modules being introduced, (or just warp speed rigs) I can get a fast warping BR at the tradeoff of cargo capacity. I'd much rather not lose what makes the ship class really unique (the scan immunity) for this proposed rebalance that adds warp speed for the transport skill.

I think this rebalance pass is excellent btw, since the tanking bonus was truly useless for the ship. If the ship was gaining something significantly strategic (say bubble immunity) then I agree, we will have to add more severe tradeoffs. But I'm happy we are not doing that - since such tradeoffs will wreck the wide utility of this ship class.

There are already alternate ways to achieve the warp speed increase today. So all this change is doing is moving a completely useless bonus (that gives very little reason to train up Transport ships skill beyond say level 3) to something that has some utility for the role of the ship, without being OP. So if we absolutely had to lose something for this rebalance (which I don't think we do, since the change is pretty balanced as is) the cargo immunity should not be the thing we lose since it makes the ship too generic.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#398 - 2014-05-23 17:27:27 UTC
Jatok Reknar wrote:
Sorry, I disagree. And BRs are used in low and null as well - not just high sec.

Without the scan immunity, a BR becomes too much like a covert ops frigate with a larger cargo hold.

Edit : With the warp speed low slow modules being introduced, (or just warp speed rigs) I can get a fast warping BR at the tradeoff of cargo capacity. I'd much rather not lose what makes the ship class really unique (the scan immunity) for this proposed rebalance that adds warp speed for the transport skill.

I think this rebalance pass is excellent btw, since the tanking bonus was truly useless for the ship. If the ship was gaining something significantly strategic (say bubble immunity) then I agree, we will have to add more severe tradeoffs. But I'm happy we are not doing that - since such tradeoffs will wreck the wide utility of this ship class.

There are already alternate ways to achieve the warp speed increase today. So all this change is doing is moving a completely useless bonus (that gives very little reason to train up Transport ships skill beyond say level 3) to something that has some utility for the role of the ship, without being OP. So if we absolutely had to lose something for this rebalance (which I don't think we do, since the change is pretty balanced as is) the cargo immunity should not be the thing we lose since it makes the ship too generic.


But you arnt losing the scan immunity are you?

They still cant be locked and thus cannot be scanned if you fly them well. This is the crux of the argument you just arnt grasping. We arn't demanding the removal of what makes this ship so good, we are simply asking for CCP to remove a safety net for bad pilots. The ship will stll be just as hard to catch as it is now but you will at least have to put in some effort for the reward of being unscannable.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#399 - 2014-05-23 17:35:23 UTC
Jatok Reknar wrote:
Without the scan immunity, a BR becomes too much like a covert ops frigate with a larger cargo hold.

How, exactly? A well-piloted BR doesn't use the scan immunity feature. No one has a chance to lock him. So how does a feature that isn't used by an active pilot somehow become the ship's distinguishing characteristic?

This is the reason I haven't actually bothered to take a side on the keep/remove scan immunity debate: I fly BRs all the time, and that feature doesn't impact me in the slightest. From your post I can infer that I've been doing something very wrong. I'd be curious to know what.
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#400 - 2014-05-23 17:54:22 UTC
I warp and cloak every time and has not once used autopilot. And I like having this distinction still. It is part of the meta and role playing aspect of the ship as well. It is the only ship in game where you feel like you are smuggling in something under the radar :)

I dont see the argument that it benefits auto-piloters. If someone is running autopilot today, they are at a higher risk today with scan immunity. They could very well be carrying valuable stuff for all we know. Removing scan immunity is just asking for folks using blockade runners to use auto-pilot (especially with the warp speed buff) if say they are running empty. This is a weak, fast-align ship so using autopilot should add more risk, not less. Which is another argument for keeping the current ship bonus and not enabling auto-piloters.

Let's not make every ship the same? BR shouldn't be a glorified covert ops frigate with a bigger cargohold.