These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2014-05-22 23:04:57 UTC
Ok tested on SISI with 150 - 160 DPS Tristan - 99dps drones

Faced 5 NPC frigates in a novice despatched them fairly quickly (20 seconds or under) with just drones. They arrive 1 at a time 2-3 minutes apart.

Small took me around 25minutes against 7 NPC Destroyers, drones could just about take one down but a bit time consuming.

Observations

The NPC arrivals seem fairly consistent between plexes every couple of minutes and is independent of the timer.

Could not break medium NPC tank even with overheating

NPC DPS still seem largely irrelevant, my Tristan was armour buffer fit and only the medium NPC presented any danger and that was with zero transversal. Main issue may be ammo consumption.

Feedback

Tank improvements make quite a difference.

Larger number of tags could be quite interesting, it may be possible however to farm NPC’s by sitting outside the capture radius and letting them spawn.

Perhaps the small and Large Plex NPC spawn rate should be a little longer.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#482 - 2014-05-22 23:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Since I can't jump to DevPosts easily (or I can't figure out how to go to a dev post past the first one), is there a reason why they are unable to limit T1 cloaks in plexes and allow T2 CovOps cloaks in plexes? So the cheap farmer ships will still be stopped, but the more expensive CovOp ships, that were meant to be cloaked, will still be able to do their thing.




Also. Man up. Unrestricted plexes is a good thing. If you can't or don't want to fight in an unrestricted plex, there will be the novice, small, and medium plexes available for you. People will finally be able to fly kiting doctrines without having to race into the plex first.
In addition, 99% sure cynos cannot be lit in a Large plex.


Or in other words........

Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:


Man up and kite like a sissy like the rest of us.



That doesn't make much sense.

Also, we're asking for restricted large plexes like in the past. Having that AND an unrestricted plex isn't out of the question.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#483 - 2014-05-23 00:08:39 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Master Sarge Recommendation for implementation of Rollbacks to timers....
Apparently it's a b**** to mess with the timer code as it is implemented right now. When CCP finally cleans it up I think they're going to implement timer rollbacks. Until then we can only dream - and listen to rants on the forums.



MaraudR73
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#484 - 2014-05-23 00:16:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Master Sarge Recommendation for implementation of Rollbacks to timers....
Apparently it's a b**** to mess with the timer code as it is implemented right now. When CCP finally cleans it up I think they're going to implement timer rollbacks. Until then we can only dream - and listen to rants on the forums.






Quit already with that ******** idea of timer rollbacks

Timer rollback will mean easy mode defending.
It will make it a numbers game.
You see 1 guy plexing? Bring 2 guys in and he has to run. Timer will rollback automatically. Job done.
It should be just as hard to defend a plex as it is to attack it.
If you want the timer to rollback, you should stay in there with your ship and fight for it like a man.
Timer rollbacks make defensive plexing absolete and way too easy.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#485 - 2014-05-23 01:15:40 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Great Stuff....
There was a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of afk plexing alts suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.


Will there be rats that need to be killed when defensive plexing? I think until that happens the afk plexers will be cheering. And the cheering sound can most clearly be heard in Vlillirier, Nennamalia, and Nisuwa. P


Less offensive plexing means less defensive plexing in the long run. Most militia members just don't want to log on to hours of defensive plexing. We get that and we can hopefully attract new blood.

Cearain wrote:

Offensive plexing is not done afk. They are at the keyboard ready to warp out or cloak.


There are many offensive plexing bots out there right now. They are based on dscan. When you get on the acceleration gate, they cloak. When you warp away to help a friend or chase another farmer - they uncloak. They exhibit bizarre behavior. I have sat in mediums with as much as 30 minutes to run. They stay cloaked in there with me. I warp to another plex after completion they decloak. They won't move however until the plex despawns. At that time I might see them on short. They will then leave system.

A bad coincidence? Others I know will warp an Astero with mids full of warp scramblers into the plex. They cloak. The Farmer uncloaks having just witnessed them come in! The Astero approaches and gets the 'points'. That is why many people in this thread are upset about cloaking being removed or made more difficult.

Cearain wrote:

Here is the goal from the op:
" These NPCs are essentially intended to be dps tests that gently encourage use of combat fit ships for running the complexes without getting in the way of PVP"

Is the assumption that high dps ships will be more likely to stay and fight than lower dps ships?

Here is what I think is the key: Anytime you force a certain ship fitting to deal with an npc you reduce the chance that the person will also want to pvp in that ship.

The ship fit becomes optimal to deal with the rats but completely impractical for pvp. A shield tanked incursus with 3 mag stabs in the lows and largest meta blasters might be very effective for plexing but no one will want to pvp in it. Thus you have the trade off. Do you want to fit for pvp or do you want to fit for plexing? IMO creating that trade off should be avoided, not encouraged.


This may be true and many veterans will agree with you. However it's really a case of picking your poison. The rats do anemic DPS - they won't interfere with a fight. If you're trying to conquer a system you'll have friends. And if you're trying to make isk - then you're really going to have to take a ship and stick to a certain type of plex in this new environment. Based on the above experience - I'd want at least 200 dps in a small plex to get through the rats quickly.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#486 - 2014-05-23 01:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
X Gallentius wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Master Sarge Recommendation for implementation of Rollbacks to timers....
Apparently it's a b**** to mess with the timer code as it is implemented right now. When CCP finally cleans it up I think they're going to implement timer rollbacks. Until then we can only dream - and listen to rants on the forums.





While there may not be a timer rollback you do get a poor man's version of it. If you try to run a small in a frigate (most farmers) you are looking at at least a 66% increase in the amount of time to do it. Myself as well as Alticus have posted a 25 minute time to a plex that currently takes 15 minutes. 7 destroyers for both of us.

Well - if a defender goes into the plex and runs it for 5 minutes - the farmer has two more rats and at least 8 more minutes to make it up!

Edit: If you take a small plex and defensive run it Sasawong style for 10 minutes - 25 minute timer for a WT coming into it - you have just created a 41 minute + monstrosity for anything with a T1 frigates DPS. That's scary.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#487 - 2014-05-23 02:14:27 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Ok tested on SISI with 150 - 160 DPS Tristan - 99dps drones

Faced 5 NPC frigates in a novice despatched them fairly quickly (20 seconds or under) with just drones. They arrive 1 at a time 2-3 minutes apart.

Small took me around 25minutes against 7 NPC Destroyers, drones could just about take one down but a bit time consuming.

Observations

The NPC arrivals seem fairly consistent between plexes every couple of minutes and is independent of the timer.

Could not break medium NPC tank even with overheating

NPC DPS still seem largely irrelevant, my Tristan was armour buffer fit and only the medium NPC presented any danger and that was with zero transversal. Main issue may be ammo consumption.

Feedback

Tank improvements make quite a difference.

Larger number of tags could be quite interesting, it may be possible however to farm NPC’s by sitting outside the capture radius and letting them spawn.

Perhaps the small and Large Plex NPC spawn rate should be a little longer.

I agree with all but the sitting outside capture radius until they all spawn - They don't seem to spawn if the timer stops.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2014-05-23 02:22:18 UTC
Since we're on the topic of more NPC, can we address the issue of tags? There are so many tags required for faction items in the LP stores that never drop from running plexes. Considering running plexes has become the main staple of FW and how FW operates for both PVE and PvP, wouldn't it be wise to adjust the tag drops?

Including some of the smaller tags and/or larger tags in the wrecks would be a good adjustment. It would means that as a FW player I don't have to go to Jita just to buy Caldari tags, even though I shoot them all day, everyday Twisted

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#489 - 2014-05-23 02:23:03 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Will there be rats that need to be killed when defensive plexing? I think until that happens the afk plexers will be cheering. And the cheering sound can most clearly be heard in Vlillirier, Nennamalia, and Nisuwa. P


Less offensive plexing means less defensive plexing in the long run. Most militia members just don't want to log on to hours of defensive plexing. We get that and we can hopefully attract new blood.


Station lockouts are to blame for that. I am not sure why anyone would base in a faction war system after inferno.

And if we are talking about home systems I am really not sympathetic. My days in faction were spent sitting in the enemies home systems and doing plexes while dozens of wts in system ignored me. They would just defensive plex it back after I was gone. If you don't want to defensive plex then kill the guy running the offensive plex.


Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Here is the goal from the op:
" These NPCs are essentially intended to be dps tests that gently encourage use of combat fit ships for running the complexes without getting in the way of PVP"

Is the assumption that high dps ships will be more likely to stay and fight than lower dps ships?

Here is what I think is the key: Anytime you force a certain ship fitting to deal with an npc you reduce the chance that the person will also want to pvp in that ship.

The ship fit becomes optimal to deal with the rats but completely impractical for pvp. A shield tanked incursus with 3 mag stabs in the lows and largest meta blasters might be very effective for plexing but no one will want to pvp in it. Thus you have the trade off. Do you want to fit for pvp or do you want to fit for plexing? IMO creating that trade off should be avoided, not encouraged.


This may be true and many veterans will agree with you. However it's really a case of picking your poison. The rats do anemic DPS - they won't interfere with a fight. If you're trying to conquer a system you'll have friends. And if you're trying to make isk - then you're really going to have to take a ship and stick to a certain type of plex in this new environment. Based on the above experience - I'd want at least 200 dps in a small plex to get through the rats quickly.


I agree this isn't that big of a deal, but based on what you say its pretty clear that these changes mean you are going to be more efficient at plexing if you have a pve fit than if you have a pvp fit.


You can get 200 dps from a t1 frigate if you are not worried about pvping in it. Therefore you will be able to do both novice and small plexes. People in pvp fits won't be able to do that. So you have the choice fit for plexing or fit for pvp. The same will probably apply to how you fit your destroyer to do smalls and mediums.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#490 - 2014-05-23 02:27:32 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Since we're on the topic of more NPC, can we address the issue of tags? There are so many tags required for faction items in the LP stores that never drop from running plexes. Considering running plexes has become the main staple of FW and how FW operates for both PVE and PvP, wouldn't it be wise to adjust the tag drops?

Including some of the smaller tags and/or larger tags in the wrecks would be a good adjustment. It would means that as a FW player I don't have to go to Jita just to buy Caldari tags, even though I shoot them all day, everyday Twisted

it used to be if you killed every single rat in the missions and took all their tags you could spend all your lp and all your tags on those items.

and with the old stats t2 is where you militia has to be, to be at that perfect ratio of tags spent on lp gained.

not to mention all the tags you used to get from plexing.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#491 - 2014-05-23 02:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
MaraudR73 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Master Sarge Recommendation for implementation of Rollbacks to timers....
Apparently it's a b**** to mess with the timer code as it is implemented right now. When CCP finally cleans it up I think they're going to implement timer rollbacks. Until then we can only dream - and listen to rants on the forums.






Quit already with that ******** idea of timer rollbacks

Timer rollback will mean easy mode defending.
It will make it a numbers game.
You see 1 guy plexing? Bring 2 guys in and he has to run. Timer will rollback automatically. Job done.
It should be just as hard to defend a plex as it is to attack it.
If you want the timer to rollback, you should stay in there with your ship and fight for it like a man.
Timer rollbacks make defensive plexing absolete and way too easy.









The same could be said about attacking.

One guy defending? BRING TWO GUYS. Easy mode attacking wah wah wah cry whine ***** moan.
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#492 - 2014-05-23 03:26:28 UTC
Is there ever any more than one rat in the plex at a time? I just want to make sure that there is minimal disruption to solo pvp.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#493 - 2014-05-23 03:42:04 UTC
Caval Marten wrote:
Is there ever any more than one rat in the plex at a time? I just want to make sure that there is minimal disruption to solo pvp.


One at a time. They have the DPS of a wet noodle. They spawned 90 - 120 seconds after the previous rat pretty much like clockwork. Even having double the damage of what their tanks were listed as in the OP they were obnoxiously difficult to kill. 'Sitting at 29km of the button prepared to cloak' sounds really good - but you are literally engaged so frequently with beating up a rat (it isn't a fight by any imagination) that I wish you luck in getting into that position.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#494 - 2014-05-23 03:53:51 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Station lockouts are to blame for that. I am not sure why anyone would base in a faction war system after inferno.

And if we are talking about home systems I am really not sympathetic. My days in faction were spent sitting in the enemies home systems and doing plexes while dozens of wts in system ignored me. They would just defensive plex it back after I was gone. If you don't want to defensive plex then kill the guy running the offensive plex.


This subject has been beaten to death. We are not going to agree on it.


Cearain wrote:
I agree this isn't that big of a deal, but based on what you say its pretty clear that these changes mean you are going to be more efficient at plexing if you have a pve fit than if you have a pvp fit.


You can get 200 dps from a t1 frigate if you are not worried about pvping in it. Therefore you will be able to do both novice and small plexes. People in pvp fits won't be able to do that. So you have the choice fit for plexing or fit for pvp. The same will probably apply to how you fit your destroyer to do smalls and mediums.



I agree that your choices may be narrowed. But no PvP fits at all? Destroyers will eat smalls easily. Most AF will do the same. They will require no sacrifices to their usual fits. You can go in and PvP with whatever you want - the rat's biggest threat is you shooting it rather then the WT if you have autotargeting set up. PvE is more about tank then DPS. This is the opposite.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#495 - 2014-05-23 04:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Station lockouts are to blame for that. I am not sure why anyone would base in a faction war system after inferno.

And if we are talking about home systems I am really not sympathetic. My days in faction were spent sitting in the enemies home systems and doing plexes while dozens of wts in system ignored me. They would just defensive plex it back after I was gone. If you don't want to defensive plex then kill the guy running the offensive plex.


This subject has been beaten to death. We are not going to agree on it.


I guess not. Enjoy your time spent de-plexing so you can dock. P

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Cearain wrote:
I agree this isn't that big of a deal, but based on what you say its pretty clear that these changes mean you are going to be more efficient at plexing if you have a pve fit than if you have a pvp fit.


You can get 200 dps from a t1 frigate if you are not worried about pvping in it. Therefore you will be able to do both novice and small plexes. People in pvp fits won't be able to do that. So you have the choice fit for plexing or fit for pvp. The same will probably apply to how you fit your destroyer to do smalls and mediums.



I agree that your choices may be narrowed. But no PvP fits at all? Destroyers will eat smalls easily. Most AF will do the same. They will require no sacrifices to their usual fits. You can go in and PvP with whatever you want - the rat's biggest threat is you shooting it rather then the WT if you have autotargeting set up. PvE is more about tank then DPS. This is the opposite.


I am not saying you can't fly a pvp fit in any plex but the plexes you can run will be cut in half (at least maybe a third in some cases) if you fly a pvp fit rather than a pve fit.

What you and alticus show is that if you have a pvp fit you will only be able to do one type of plex. If you fit for pve you will be able to do 2 types of plex. For example you can do novice and smalls in a t1 frigate if you are pve fit. But if you are pvp fit you will just be able to do novice plexes in a t1 frigate.

If you want to do medium and smalls in a destroyer you will likely need to use a silly shield fit that maximizes dps that you would likely not want to pvp in. Otherwise you will only be able to do small plexes. If you are in a ft1 frig and see a wt deplexing a small plex you can chase him out but you won't be able to budge the timer like you can now.


I'm not saying its a big deal but, IMO it is going slightly in the wrong direction. I want mechanics that encourage pvp fits not ones that discourage them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
MaraudR73
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#496 - 2014-05-23 10:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: MaraudR73
Quote:
I am not saying you can't fly a pvp fit in any plex but the plexes you can run will be cut in half (at least maybe a third in some cases) if you fly a pvp fit rather than a pve fit.

What you and alticus show is that if you have a pvp fit you will only be able to do one type of plex. If you fit for pve you will be able to do 2 types of plex. For example you can do novice and smalls in a t1 frigate if you are pve fit. But if you are pvp fit you will just be able to do novice plexes in a t1 frigate.

If you want to do medium and smalls in a destroyer you will likely need to use a silly shield fit that maximizes dps that you would likely not want to pvp in. Otherwise you will only be able to do small plexes. If you are in a ft1 frig and see a wt deplexing a small plex you can chase him out but you won't be able to budge the timer like you can now.


I'm not saying its a big deal but, IMO it is going slightly in the wrong direction. I want mechanics that encourage pvp fits not ones that discourage them.




It doesnt matter if people bring PVE fits, that is ok.
Fozzie also said they dont want to discourage PVE.
The good thing about this is that they have to PVE without Warp Core Stabs to be able to apply enough damage.
PVE is not a bad thing, the fact that they could do it with Warp Core Stabs is.
If you dont want them to farm you now actually have a chance of catching them.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#497 - 2014-05-23 11:00:37 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Edit: If you take a small plex and defensive run it Sasawong style for 10 minutes - 25 minute timer for a WT coming into it - you have just created a 41 minute + monstrosity for anything with a T1 frigates DPS. That's scary.


Had not even thought of this, now this sounds a little broken, there needs to be some sort of link between the timer and the spawn rate that prevents the spawns in the defensive half of the timer. If it were up to me the NPC faction that spawned would be based on the half of the timer it was in also, making defensive plexing require dps as well.

Sgt Ocker wrote:

I agree with all but the sitting outside capture radius until they all spawn - They don't seem to spawn if the timer stops.


Pretty sure they do, I spent some time outside the capture zone and they do spawn, I also warped away to fit up another ship and the NPC was there when I returned.

At the moment I like the extra tank but there may be too many spawns.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#498 - 2014-05-23 11:12:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:

What you and alticus show is that if you have a pvp fit you will only be able to do one type of plex. If you fit for pve you will be able to do 2 types of plex. For example you can do novice and smalls in a t1 frigate if you are pve fit. But if you are pvp fit you will just be able to do novice plexes in a t1 frigate.

If you want to do medium and smalls in a destroyer you will likely need to use a silly shield fit that maximizes dps that you would likely not want to pvp in. Otherwise you will only be able to do small plexes. If you are in a ft1 frig and see a wt deplexing a small plex you can chase him out but you won't be able to budge the timer like you can now.

This simply isn't true.

Granted, if you're running one of our 110dps meta fit Atrons, it'll take a while to run a small. But you can do it. Armor meta fit frigates might have a bit of a hard time, especially brick tanked or dual rep ones, but most balanced setups should do fine in novices and smalls.

Armor destroyers will be able to run up to Mediums with no problem. Even a meta fit armor blaster Catalyst throws enough DPS to break mediums - same with Algoses and Thrashers. Not an Amarr pilot but I know the Dragoon will be fine, and probably the Coercer too.

I'm a little concerned about ships fitting Light Missiles or Rails, since their DPS tends to be lower on average. However, CCP has stated that using burstier damage (more alpha, lower DPS) should still work. I'll need to run some tests on SiSi to see how that plays out.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#499 - 2014-05-23 11:14:36 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I agree with all but the sitting outside capture radius until they all spawn - They don't seem to spawn if the timer stops.


Pretty sure they do, I spent some time outside the capture zone and they do spawn, I also warped away to fit up another ship and the NPC was there when I returned.

At the moment I like the extra tank but there may be too many spawns.

Interesting. If they spawn every 1.5-5 minutes though, there's a limit to how many will spawn per hour. Not sure that's a better isk/hr than just running the plexes for LP, though it does open up some relatively interesting options for folks at Tier 1.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
MaraudR73
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#500 - 2014-05-23 11:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: MaraudR73
After trying on SiSi I have to say the spawn rate is a bit excessive.
5 spawns in a novice and 7 in a small is a bit too much.
Better would be 3-4 spawn in novice and 4-5 spawns in Small
Didnt try out the Large but I read somebody posted about those spawn a little to fast too.

So maybe change the respawn rate from 90-120 seconds to 150-180 seconds??

That would mean 1 Initial spawn + mininum of 3 extra spawns every 3 minutes (one at 3 one at 6 one at 9 minute of timer) = 4 spawns total in a novice.