Player Features and Ideas Discussion

To clarify.

At no point has CCP stated that they intend for FW to solely be about PvP. If all it was intended to be was lowsec PvP with no PvE, that's already what you have in the rest of lowsec. FW is more vibrant and more active precisely because there are numerous, accessible and easily identified PvE objectives throughout the warzone. The desire to make occupancy / control solely dependent on PvP is not in line with any goal or vision they have expressed.

In my view, warzone control comes down to two main things. First, are you able to effectively base out of your chosen systems, with minimal interference. Second, are you able to significantly impede WTs from doing the same. As a result, only a few systems really matter for me. Eha, Vlillirier, Nennamalia, Hallanen, Nisuwa, and Fliet to be precise. Oicx and Aldranette are somewhat important, as they lay between significant systems and have stations, and thus could be used as viable staging points. FW agent systems are next, but only as revenue sources and only when we're at Tier 2+ and in LP Beast Mode.

Non-station systems don't matter. Station systems with no appreciable WT presence don't matter. Those won't be heavily contested, so they can be taken at essentially any time we decide. In short, if it's not a system whose occupants are a significant impact on the warzone, it don't matter.

Finally, since Gallente FW missions are significantly more difficult to solo than those of other factions, plexing is the main income source of a large number of militia pilots. We have actively decided at times NOT to take additional systems, in order to leave areas for our pilots to plex in.

At the moment, attempting to control the warzone in fhe face of AFK stabbed frigate farming pressure is a recipe for suicide. So, we keep our goals a lot more reasonable, given our numbers. You need good TZ coverage and a large number of active pilots to control / patrol systems, and in the absence of that it just doesn't happen.

Warzone control isn't just about numbers on a screen. It's about warzone topology.

It's a relatively simple matter to offline the cyno jammer when you need things jumped in. You more than make up for it in added security. Hostiles can come in and bust it up with subcaps, but keeping systems safe from all-but-blops hotdrops and bridges would make for a healthier environment.




In the "good old days" we slugged it out simply to be slugging it out. There were more fights, more and expensive losses....and we kept coming back for more. We had more people in militia chat, and if they weren't a spy, they were looking for some pew.

Now it seems everybody has isk per hour on their mind and we've seen the number in militia chat dwindle every month. People leave for greener pastures and are replaced by PVEing scarebears.

Unless you're simply PVEing and nothing else, FW as it is today is much worse than it was in the "good old days".

If FW is to return to it's former glory, the easy LP needs to disappear. With no army of farmers, and with some tweaks to the LP stores, suddenly the LP becomes worth something....

But, even that wouldn't be enough. The militias need tools just like the system wide cyno jammers that got us all wet and ready and then heard nothing else about it.

The bigger a corp/alliance gets, the greedier the leadership gets. Eventually it gets too big and the lure of nulsec corp taxes and moongoo becomes too much, and it pulls up stakes and rents some nul space until they start bleeding members because the peons figure out FW is better PVE and PVP.

Now, the so-called holdouts that have been in FW for a long time are small entities because of the previous paragraph. Small fish like us can't have our big slugouts in bigger ships because one of the big fish is going to take notice and rain on that parade. If we had real cyno jammers, that wouldn't be as much of an issue. There are workarounds of course, and there should be.

Some people may say that's too good and doesn't belong. BUT, look at plex mechanics. They were created the way they were to prevent hotdrops and limit crazily overshipped party crashers so we could have good fights, and it's worked perfectly. System cyno jammers is pretty much the same concept.

But anyway, my biggest point is that tweaks to PVE are not enough. If all the farmers left tomorrow and never came back, that wouldn't necessarily bring back all the pvp of the past.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. I would strongly advise everyone who has strong opinions on the warzones to give these changes a try on SISI for themselves.

Our position on timer rollbacks has not changed. We'd like to do them at some point, but they will not be coming in Kronos.

The biggest problem as perceived by many is being dealt with, severely in the upcoming patch.
The real problem with FW as it is now is a far bigger issue.

Faction Warfare is far less about Militia fights than it is "Lowsec PVP". FW was made popular by Inferno and has never been the same since.

FW is about making Isk 1st, PVP 2nd and Last is Faction Warfare - That is the way CCP have set it up, all bar very minor changes to remove Bots and AFK Farmers, that is how things will stay.

Unless the Militias can get it together to make a difference to the way non FW PVP dominates, FW will continue down its road to nowhere.

so maybe in another 2 years?

Before Kronos

Faction Warfare Evasion Expert (ie- Stabbed Farmer)

1. Warps to medium plex. Runs for 5 mins

2. FW hunting pilot warps to same plex after entering system.

3. As the Hunter enters the plex the Farmer either cloaks (3a.) or warps off (4.)

3a. The Farmer waits a short while for the Hunter to leave. If he does not and it looks like the Hunter will remain the Farmer uncloaks and warps out (usually at significant distance to avoid warp scramblers) - (4.)

4. The Farmer warps to another plex (usually smaller) and starts to run this. Alternatively finds a plex in a neighbouring system (return to 1.)

5a. If the hunter is in a ship too large to enter the smaller site then reship is required. Adding time to allow the farmer to plex further.

5b. If the hunter chooses to run down the larger plex, the Farmer will complete the smaller plex before the larger is complete and move onto a third plex.

5c. If the hunter pursues into the smaller plex, the farmer evades and returns to the larger plex. Often there will be significant time elapsed on the larger plex and on the smaller plex so that the farmer can complete either before the Hunter can plex in the opposite direction.

Result: The Farmer has successfully contested sovereignty of a FW system without any confrontation. This is a combat anti-initiator.
Extrapolation: Less PvP in the FW zone. Systems Sov can be flipped too easily and without involvement of those that truly involve in the conflict.

With Kronos
The same applies except that the Farmer must act to avoid engagement before the Hunter enters into the plex. D-Scan will be king.
With aggressive plexing: Fitting WCS may not help with cycling the NPC but, the Farmer can fit for damage to clear NPC’s and use cloak (useful outside the exclusion zone and when moving between systems) and still achieve the same outcomes although it takes a little longer now to complete each plex.

With defensive plexing: Outcomes remain the same but, the LP payout is reduced (on the current system).


Master Sarge Recommendation for implementation of Rollbacks to timers

If the FW pilot leaves the plex it starts to count down to 0:00 (neutral) contested. The rollback within an empty plex (read no pilots from either Faction – non FW pilots do not count) at 0.5x rate (ie- 1 s back for every 2 s).
If an opposing FW pilot enters into the plex, the countdown to 0:00 (neutral) is at a higher rate. The rollback moves at 2x rate (ie- 1 s back for every 0.5 seconds of real time).

With Rollback

There is a minor penalty for someone who flees the plex they were working – dependant (in proportion) to the amount of time they flee for. You can always reship and fleet up to fight for your plex whether you have been blobbed or not if it means that much to you.
A FW hunter is rewarded with “winning” the plex from the enemy with a rollback speed of twice that which contested it. The hard work of then capturing the plex (after 0:00 neutral status) reverts to standard capture at 1x rate.
A plex farmer cannot evade and start another plex without finding that the original work has been undone at twice the rate at which they chose to apply and that the threat of the Hunter would be upon them again before they are able to plex out the spare plex. They did not fight for their claim, so they suffer the penalty of evasion.

We don't always get what we want. Personally, I like the idea of an ungated complex, as it should encourage fights and comps that we don't currently see in plexes. Granted, in your WZ I expect trying to run those in anything other than a T1 frigate will induce multiple titans to drop on your head, but that's an issue with the prevalence of nullbear alts with nothing better to do rather than game design IMO.

Oh, I'm sure there was. Keeping escalations in check and ensuring the same fight dynamics extend to a BC level would probably encourage fights. It's going to be annoying as hell dealing with the neutrals going all Honorable Third Party on any Large they see.

Guess my point was more that I don't see the need for gated plexes over cruiser size. Any particular reason we should be incentivizing BC fights in particular, other than nostalgia?

Since I can't jump to DevPosts easily (or I can't figure out how to go to a dev post past the first one), is there a reason why they are unable to limit T1 cloaks in plexes and allow T2 CovOps cloaks in plexes? So the cheap farmer ships will still be stopped, but the more expensive CovOp ships, that were meant to be cloaked, will still be able to do their thing.




Also. Man up. Unrestricted plexes is a good thing. If you can't or don't want to fight in an unrestricted plex, there will be the novice, small, and medium plexes available for you. People will finally be able to fly kiting doctrines without having to race into the plex first.
In addition, 99% sure cynos cannot be lit in a Large plex.