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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Oxide Ammar
#1701 - 2014-05-21 09:46:52 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Low seccers combined with people who have decent ideas and realistic views.

You mean realistic views like "freighters and jump freighters don't need to be changed, they're fine as they are"?


No I mean "freighters are fine in and of themselves, the problem is that they make use of Jump bridges which should be nerfed just as jump capable ships (and thus Jfreighters) should be nerfed". We need more separation because that helps local null sec industry and lowers the focus on high sec industry (this will of course also require a substantial buff to null in this regard).

Anything with jump or bridging capability (BO excluded) needs to be toned down dramatically. Freighters, being given rig slots and thus having to be rebalanced because of it, is an entirely different issue and discussion.


So they need also to nerf rorqual ? if they did that I'm sure people will camp around CCP HQ with pitchforks and torches Lol

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1702 - 2014-05-21 10:08:26 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
So they need also to nerf rorqual ? if they did that I'm sure people will camp around CCP HQ with pitchforks and torches Lol

I believe this was stated to be the goal: "To make it feasible to have Rorqual on grid when mining". Knowing the way Fozzie does things, it'll be just made impossible to have it off-grid so the only feasible way will be having it on grid, where it'll be a sitting duck, just like any freighter in hisec, waiting to be nuked.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1703 - 2014-05-21 10:39:15 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
So they need also to nerf rorqual ? if they did that I'm sure people will camp around CCP HQ with pitchforks and torches Lol

I believe this was stated to be the goal: "To make it feasible to have Rorqual on grid when mining". Knowing the way Fozzie does things, it'll be just made impossible to have it off-grid so the only feasible way will be having it on grid, where it'll be a sitting duck, just like any freighter in hisec, waiting to be nuked.



Well, perhaps you'll have to switch to a less autistic mining setup then, using more scouts, defences and defenders. If you want afk mining go to high se... oh wait, that doesn't work either.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1704 - 2014-05-21 10:49:06 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen this is your nightly message to let you know that I've caught up to this point in the thread and that we still have not forgotten about you. Big smile

There's a version two of the design currently posted for the CSM in their internal forums, they've responded largely positively so far. I'm going to let them think about it overnight and if all looks good we'll post the proposal for public feedback tomorrow.

Thanks as always!


Too late, Fozzie, I'm already unsubbed...
After all, this isn't first offense. If nobody is going to protect the industry from getting covered in Fozzie, might as well quit preemptively.


why post about it? just go. no one cares.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#1705 - 2014-05-21 11:31:51 UTC
I saw in here someone suggesting not touching the Freighter, but tweaking the rigs instead. I like this idea however as it was quickly pointed out that could have adverse effects with other capitals.

How about instead you leave the core freighter stats as they are on the live servers, but when the rig slots are granted, the freighters/JFs also get a new role bonus as well: 400% increase in all rig penalties. (Or even a role "bonus" which mitigates rig gains) That way a standard freighter could continue as it currently is, but then rigs would still allow customization, but just at significantly increased penalty costs. (or reduce gains)

Historically this approach would seem odd, but now with the mordus ships entering the fray with both missile velocity increases and flight time nerfs to achieve a desired effect, the freighters wouldn't be alone at least.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1706 - 2014-05-21 11:53:34 UTC
As to the people trying to say that this should all be scrapped.

While I agree freighters *should* have remained the same, at this juncture I highly doubt they will. CCP has proved many times in the past that they have no problem throwing good development after bad.

And in this case I wouldn't even call it bad. This was well thought out and fairly clearly math hammered out to a pretty good degree, the exception being the early typos and the jump freighter agility nerf, which I feel was not warranted.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#1707 - 2014-05-21 12:02:12 UTC
Ranamar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen this is your nightly message to let you know that I've caught up to this point in the thread and that we still have not forgotten about you. Big smile

There's a version two of the design currently posted for the CSM in their internal forums, they've responded largely positively so far. I'm going to let them think about it overnight and if all looks good we'll post the proposal for public feedback tomorrow.

Thanks as always!


Is there any chance we're getting jump rigs? I might consider something other than cargo rigs if there was a fuel reduction one that got me better fuel/cargo than expanders. At the very least, it would provide an option for JFs that isn't either cargo or reducing the time spent warping to a hisec gate.


No. But we will get jump containers that will directly jump from one hangar into another one. Base range of 10 LY, capacity 1 mln cubic meters. They will be introduced in Kronos and rebalanced in Crius as people on forums are demanding to get rigs for them.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1708 - 2014-05-21 12:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen this is your nightly message to let you know that I've caught up to this point in the thread and that we still have not forgotten about you. Big smile

There's a version two of the design currently posted for the CSM in their internal forums, they've responded largely positively so far. I'm going to let them think about it overnight and if all looks good we'll post the proposal for public feedback tomorrow.

Thanks as always!


Too late, Fozzie, I'm already unsubbed...
After all, this isn't first offense. If nobody is going to protect the industry from getting covered in Fozzie, might as well quit preemptively.


why post about it? just go. no one cares.


Well you should care, but you are too up your self to understand that if Eve keeps going this way then the only people left in Eve will be gankers, griefers, scammers, meta-gamers, power gamers and people who have invested too long in the game to let go of it, all those looking for immersive gameplay without being at the whim of the above will be in Elite Dangerous or Star Citizen (with their PvP bar set to no PvP...). In fact it might be fun for me just to keep this toon subbed and laugh at how irrelevant you all become as you troll each other..., now who would win in a troll battle between tibbia, Dave stark and Jenn aSide, the thought amuses me greatly...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1709 - 2014-05-21 12:42:47 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well you should care, but you are too up your self to understand that if Eve keeps going this way then the only people left in Eve will be gankers, griefers, scammers, meta-gamers, power gamers and people who have invested too long in the game to let go of it, all those looking for immersive gameplay without being at the whim of the above will be in Elite Dangerous or Star Citizen (with their PvP bar set to no PvP...). In fact it might be fun for me just to keep this toon subbed and laugh at how irrelevant you all become as you troll each other..., now who would win in a troll battle between tibbia, Dave stark and Jenn aSide, the thought amuses me greatly...

A couple of problems with that: first is that, without other players to bounce against, those games will never offer even a fraction of the immersion that EVE does. You kind of have to ask why people who don't want to engage with other players are in an MMO to begin with…

The second is that the troll fights you're hoping for won't happen for a very simple reason: none of the people you mention troll. Hell, one of them doesn't even exist. Just because they ask piercing questions and post insightful comments doesn't mean they troll — it just means that the person they respond to might not have thought things through fully and get frustrated when their idea falls apart under closer scrutiny.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1710 - 2014-05-21 12:45:19 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
I like the lowslot idea.

Other than the fact that it's cheaper, it's also more versatile, and allows you to change your freighter for the task.. re-rigging really isn't an option with Capital Rigs :p

I mean I need to move a LOT of crap.. Cargo.. On the way back I'm not moving much, but it's worth a fair bit.. Tank.. Gotta get it done faster ? Agility..

I won't miss the loss of warpspeed rigs as an option.. though I think adding a warpspeed low-slot item, would open up a lot of gameplay options.. if the penalty was right..


I don't think anyone is really going to miss them so long as they are % based. on a freighter that only does 1.37 AU warp with 2 t2 Hyperspatial velocity optimizers you'll do a whopping 50% more so now you'll be doing a whole 2.055 AU warp! AWWW yeah now we're moving! lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1711 - 2014-05-21 12:50:37 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
I don't think anyone is really going to miss them so long as they are % based. on a freighter that only does 1.37 AU warp with 2 t2 Hyperspatial velocity optimizers you'll do a whopping 50% more so now you'll be doing a whole 2.055 AU warp! AWWW yeah now we're moving! lol

Oh, I don't know. I'd say that if anything it makes more of a difference in practical term for slow ships. I mean, on a cruiser that skips past a system in 15 seconds, reducing that to 10 won't make much difference — one sip of tea less. On a freighter that takes a minute and a half to cross a system, reducing that to a minute is a huge gain in terms of how much you can transport (it's the core business after all) in a given timeframe, not to mention how much less painful it is to make those long hauls.

The absolute speed change from that percentage might not be anything to write home about, but the absolute time saving can get pretty huge pretty fast.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1712 - 2014-05-21 13:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Low seccers combined with people who have decent ideas and realistic views.

You mean realistic views like "freighters and jump freighters don't need to be changed, they're fine as they are"?


No I mean "freighters are fine in and of themselves, the problem is that they make use of Jump bridges which should be nerfed just as jump capable ships (and thus Jfreighters) should be nerfed". We need more separation because that helps local null sec industry and lowers the focus on high sec industry (this will of course also require a substantial buff to null in this regard).

Anything with jump or bridging capability (BO excluded) needs to be toned down dramatically. Freighters, being given rig slots and thus having to be rebalanced because of it, is an entirely different issue and discussion.

Both nullsec and highsec industry will still benefit from ease of movement of materials and goods between them, especially now that goods and material will flow both ways. For the first time ever it may be profitable to produce some things in null and sell them in high, just as it is and will still profitable to produce some things in high and sell in null.

There's no pressing need for a jump drive nerf at all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1713 - 2014-05-21 13:06:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ramona Quimby wrote:
Instead they're being nerfed to please Goons and Gankers.

Stop nerfing hi-sec and buffing null-sec.
You realise, of course, that this change has every potential to create problems for goons and gankers; that they weren't part of the groups who advocated this change; and that this hits nullsec harder than it does highsec.

Mag's wrote:
No not really. Tippia is his usual logical self. Whereas Valterra is, well, highly illogical and prone to large memory lapses as well as complete removal from reality in one instance.

I think he might be referring to our appearance, except that Valterra is a beat-up old Civire who can't even dress herself properly and who lacks my fabulous ass. Blink


I think you are going to need a judge for said comparison. Alright alright i'll take one for the team and do it... lol
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1714 - 2014-05-21 13:06:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Well you should care, but you are too up your self to understand that if Eve keeps going this way then the only people left in Eve will be gankers, griefers, scammers, meta-gamers, power gamers


u mean the ppl that actually play this game?

if u want a non-PvP game like starcitizen then why did u join a PvP MMO in the first place? why are u in a game where ganking, greifing, scamming, meta-gaming and power gaming is not just ok, its applauded.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1715 - 2014-05-21 13:16:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Low seccers combined with people who have decent ideas and realistic views.

You mean realistic views like "freighters and jump freighters don't need to be changed, they're fine as they are"?


No I mean "freighters are fine in and of themselves, the problem is that they make use of Jump bridges which should be nerfed just as jump capable ships (and thus Jfreighters) should be nerfed". We need more separation because that helps local null sec industry and lowers the focus on high sec industry (this will of course also require a substantial buff to null in this regard).

Anything with jump or bridging capability (BO excluded) needs to be toned down dramatically. Freighters, being given rig slots and thus having to be rebalanced because of it, is an entirely different issue and discussion.

Both nullsec and highsec industry will still benefit from ease of movement of materials and goods between them, especially now that goods and material will flow both ways. For the first time ever it may be profitable to produce some things in null and sell them in high, just as it is and will still profitable to produce some things in high and sell in null.

There's no pressing need for a jump drive nerf at all.



Yes there is, you just don't want one... difference.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1716 - 2014-05-21 13:26:31 UTC
Oh I guess that settles it then, Gregor Parud the NPC alt created October of last year understands the necessity of nerfing jump drives and CCP should listen to his wisdom garnered from extensive experience on the subject.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Adrien Crosse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1717 - 2014-05-21 13:26:38 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Low seccers combined with people who have decent ideas and realistic views.

You mean realistic views like "freighters and jump freighters don't need to be changed, they're fine as they are"?


No I mean "freighters are fine in and of themselves, the problem is that they make use of Jump bridges which should be nerfed just as jump capable ships (and thus Jfreighters) should be nerfed". We need more separation because that helps local null sec industry and lowers the focus on high sec industry (this will of course also require a substantial buff to null in this regard).

Anything with jump or bridging capability (BO excluded) needs to be toned down dramatically. Freighters, being given rig slots and thus having to be rebalanced because of it, is an entirely different issue and discussion.

Both nullsec and highsec industry will still benefit from ease of movement of materials and goods between them, especially now that goods and material will flow both ways. For the first time ever it may be profitable to produce some things in null and sell them in high, just as it is and will still profitable to produce some things in high and sell in null.

There's no pressing need for a jump drive nerf at all.



Yes there is, you just don't want one... difference.


You're right - there is.

But a straight numbers nerf does nothing to address that - a straight numbers nerf just pisses people off.

Everyone who uses jump freighters now will keep on using them and just roll the additional cost down the chain to whoever may sit farther down, be that buyers for industrialists, customers for Black Frog or whoever else.

A nerf to jump freighters can only make sense if it comes coupled with deeper mechanics changes that offer viable, fun alternatives to using them, because escorted freighter runs aren't that, and depending on titan bridging for freighters isn't helping the "power projection bad" or "smaller groups in null good" mantras either.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1718 - 2014-05-21 13:45:11 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well you should care, but you are too up your self to understand that if Eve keeps going this way then the only people left in Eve will be gankers, griefers, scammers, meta-gamers, power gamers


u mean the ppl that actually play this game?

if u want a non-PvP game like starcitizen then why did u join a PvP MMO in the first place? why are u in a game where ganking, greifing, scamming, meta-gaming and power gaming is not just ok, its applauded.


With such a poor, insignificant and one-dimensional combat pvp side, I doubt it's possible to call eve "PvP MMO".
So basically you want to remove everyone who's only pvping on market, which is a lot more engaging than inferior combat pvp. What did they tell about "nerf everyone's playstyle except mine"? Oh, I remember - "HTFU". If you can only do combat pvp and can't engage on market, you suck, period.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1719 - 2014-05-21 13:45:59 UTC
Adrien Crosse wrote:

You're right - there is.

But a straight numbers nerf does nothing to address that - a straight numbers nerf just pisses people off.

Everyone who uses jump freighters now will keep on using them and just roll the additional cost down the chain to whoever may sit farther down, be that buyers for industrialists, customers for Black Frog or whoever else.

A nerf to jump freighters can only make sense if it comes coupled with deeper mechanics changes that offer viable, fun alternatives to using them, because escorted freighter runs aren't that, and depending on titan bridging for freighters isn't helping the "power projection bad" or "smaller groups in null good" mantras either.


I'll go ahead and ask this one again.

How do you make hauling fun?

Because the last few people have said things like "well make it so I can't get ganked", or "make freighters better than before", which is not an answer, just a wishlist you will never achieve.

So how do you make hauling fun? If you can't, then the answer is that it will never be fun. But whether it can or it can't, it MUST be balanced.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1720 - 2014-05-21 13:48:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
So they need also to nerf rorqual ? if they did that I'm sure people will camp around CCP HQ with pitchforks and torches Lol

I believe this was stated to be the goal: "To make it feasible to have Rorqual on grid when mining". Knowing the way Fozzie does things, it'll be just made impossible to have it off-grid so the only feasible way will be having it on grid, where it'll be a sitting duck, just like any freighter in hisec, waiting to be nuked.



Well, perhaps you'll have to switch to a less autistic mining setup then, using more scouts, defences and defenders. If you want afk mining go to high se... oh wait, that doesn't work either.


You're absolutely right. Currently, since Fozzie went bull-in-the-china-shop over mining in Odyssey, there is no mining setup which works, aside from being 40 systems deep in blue donut.