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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

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Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#601 - 2014-05-20 06:43:07 UTC
Reduce the jump range of the Medium Micro Jump Drive to 50km and half the spool-up time.

Introduce scripts that can be used by both Large and Medium MJDs that increase or decrease the range by a percentile and affect the spool-up time proportionally.

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Shivanthar
#602 - 2014-05-20 06:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
I am standing on a negative point of view about this. I try to be as neutral as possible.

I understand that this MMJD module is created with good intention, but I really want to see how it passed through the brain-storming of CCP tinkerers about what consequences it would create.

- You killed the purpose of mjd on battleships.
- You created "battleship interceptors", called "combat battlecruisers" and "command ships", maybe without intention.
- Warp speed changes, TE nerf, expensive hulls... Who is going to use them, except high-sec (without any wardec)? Every logical buff that is given to medium hulls is filling more missions with T3 cruisers everywhere.
- The only ones who should get this module is Deep Space Transports.
- Maybe with lesser warm-up time, because the module is smaller, mass of the ships are smaller, it should charge quicker.
- Jump range might be lower.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#603 - 2014-05-20 07:02:46 UTC
I am for a script that modify the range of the jump:

Base range of the MMJD: 75Km time to reactivate: 2 minutes

Script 1: +33% to range, +50% to time reactivation
Script 2: -33% to range, -50% to time reactivation

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#604 - 2014-05-20 08:07:30 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships


Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.

Enlighten me.

When you compare ABCs to Command ships - it's range. CSs have to fight within long scram range and ceptors can get them too. ABCs are outside of reach of both.

When you compare ABCs to Battleships - it's speed... and cost. I know, PL can welp titans every day, but for us, ordinary people, difference of 100+ mil per ship is THE difference. And by speed, I mean all of it - velocity, agility, warp speed, lock time. If you were not that hypocrite, you'd have noticed that it's not 10%, but 1.5 times for align time Tornado vs Tempest.

Now, the enlightenment.
1. "Solo" PVP on gate. A ceptor points some poor dude. Tornado warps in from the offgrid spot, insta lock, alpha wreck, warp away. It's quite hard to tackle him with long point or bubble. It's next to impossible to scram. BS is a looser here, cause it takes longer to warp in, to lock and to GTFO, which leaves a chance for victim to escape, and for hunter to lose rather expensive BS to some upper-hand.
2. Large fleet fight, say 50+ ABCs. They're kiting the **** out of you. You're trying to shoot, but they're out of range. You're trying to bomb, but they warp. Finally, a very skilled hictor pilot grabs their butts! Dont get me wrong, it's difficult. I mean it. Ask Makalu about keeping the BATTLESHIPS BUBBLED. Now, you have a chance of successfull bomb run. With MMJD, you dont.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#605 - 2014-05-20 08:27:22 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Fair enough.


Ofc the 100km boosh might let you get to the logi that are typically behind the ishtars. Either way I think that 100 gives you more flex to position your self to either overun the ishtars or the logi. Ether way there will be a period when you will be in optimal with heavy pulse or rails etc which is a **** ton better than being completely out of range as things are now.


Jumping to the logi behind ishtars lands you on top of the optimal on the ishtars itself, you can fill in the rest yourself. And unless you're moving 2k/s after landing, your chances of catching the said logi will be low anyways.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#606 - 2014-05-20 08:40:56 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Ocasionaly? How many tiemsyou see battleships without MJD nowadays? oo yes almost never



You hardly see battleships at all outside of fleets and station games. If battleships are getting away from you due to MJDs, try scramming them

Quote:
And i can reprase your sentence for more accuracy :

Users of --low-commitment tactics-- inteligent tactic that prioritize the ability to --run away-- control the fight over the --ability to hold their target-- stupidity of pressing approach and f1 , will occasionally lose kills when fighting a --small-- MAJOR subset of ships because they --were afraid to risk-- have brains and do not want to fall for baits that will then be joined by a large blob waiting


You could've just said you want to be able to run away because you're not clever enough to commit intelligently. Everyone would understand.



Are you really that dumb or you want an oscar? No people do not KITE to be able to run away. PEopel KITE so they can STAY to the very end and fight against several ships by controlling their positioning and separatign the blob


ANYONE that thinks kiting is there to run away really have ZERO clue on PVP! ZERO!!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#607 - 2014-05-20 08:44:20 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
With disruptors becoming more and more useless.

Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate?


From the look of it CCP's stance is "if you want to make sure you kill someone who isn't a kiter you'll have to commit to the fight, no more risk averse kiting vs a slow target".

Apart from that, CBC make up only a small portion of targets in most forms of pvp so it's not like long points are completely useless now. In yours that's different of course, perhaps this is (yet another) carebear buff?



This is bullshit!

Risk averse my rear end! When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? They are usually the most balsy players, fighting against 4:1 or worse odds. Kiting is uses to force separation on enemy blobs.

IF i want to run away I would use CLOAKY T3. That is a cowards weapon. OR maybe.. a BC with MJD? That is a cowards option.



Anyoen that thinks kiting is used by risck averse has no idea on PVP. Come on.. try making a 5 billion isk cruiser to kite and fly around in 4:1 oreven worse situations. Lets see how balsy these people are.



Approach andpress F1 on othere hand is the tactic for MID CHALLANGED peopel that cannot comprehend tactics.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#608 - 2014-05-20 10:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Aside from the mayhem in pvp this will cause with t3 bc's, I can actually see this being used to bring back more usability with pve with battlecruisers. Navy drake with mjd will be fearsome indeed and QUITE useful for lvl 4s with this. Might even be able to pull of a 100mn ab/mjd combo for lvl 5s...

EDIT:
Yup it fits with implants. Either geno set and 3% cpu or just 5% cpu implant. Run like buffer 100mn heavy tengu; just pull range and kite. Not exactly how well sig will work, but it's cap stable, and the hardeners will swap depending what you're fighting. Tanking hybrids with this setup if it takes any stray shots.
[Drake Navy Issue]

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Large Shield Extender II
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#609 - 2014-05-20 10:44:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights?


The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so.

Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable!
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#610 - 2014-05-20 11:25:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
This is bullshit!

Risk averse my rear end! When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? They are usually the most balsy players, fighting against 4:1 or worse odds. Kiting is uses to force separation on enemy blobs.

IF i want to run away I would use CLOAKY T3. That is a cowards weapon. OR maybe.. a BC with MJD? That is a cowards option.



Anyoen that thinks kiting is used by risck averse has no idea on PVP. Come on.. try making a 5 billion isk cruiser to kite and fly around in 4:1 oreven worse situations. Lets see how balsy these people are.



Approach andpress F1 on othere hand is the tactic for MID CHALLANGED peopel that cannot comprehend tactics.



Kiting/nano age/WCS, it's all the same; you're using a strategy that allows you to attack without having to commit. Nothing wrong with that as such but don't for a second think that using either strategy makes you highly intelligent or super amazing. People use said strategies because they work, obviously, and especially/preferably against idiot targets so you can then bask in how much more intelligent you are for having found the orbit button and having gang link alts.

Again, nothing wrong with it but don't for a second try to convince people (or yourself) that it's anything other than choosing to not commit to a fight. And that's what they're trying to change with the slow BCs, those can't choose to aggress or run from faster ships which leaves the initiative with those other ships. Would they buff CBC again to a point where they CAN take the initiative they'll be overpowered again, THIS way they get buffed but still incapable of forcing themselves onto targets (and as such will never become a new meta), instead their force anyone wanting to kill them into their realm.

All that will happen is that the few BC you'll run in to won't be a viable target for your "running away" kiting fitted ship, this is of course terrible and should not be allowed.


No amount of fake high horse hilarious "look at me being special" or non-faked stupidity changes this.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#611 - 2014-05-20 11:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
I'm really not sure why people are so against these. It's like they think they can be fitted for free in an extra mid slot all BC's are going to get to accomodate it.

Lets get real.

Just look at what happens to a ship when you fit one.

Ferox:
A Neutron Blaster Ferox more or less has to give up it's MWD. It's a serious compromise. Otherwise you must downgrade weapons and or tank which removes one of the main advantages of a Blaster Ferox which is range with null.

A 250mm Rail Ferox can only fit a MJD. No MWD too

Drake:
HAM Drake must sacrifice tank and dps in order to keep it's web and still have an MWD. Or it drops the web for an invul to maintain tank. It's still a massive compromise.

Naga:
Blaster Naga is useful within 50km and fitting MWD + MJD severly gimps it's tank.

Rail Naga is utterly paper thin and would probably die in a fire during the 10 second spool up time so I don't see why they shouldn't get the module

Brutix Myrmidon and Talos all benefit from this module but still have to make sacrifices to fit it. Brutix can't be fully active tanked and have a MWD MJD combo. Shield Talos isn't feasable but a 1600mm plate blaster Talos looks fantastic and basically how it was designed to be in the first place.

Cyclone:
Must drop the web and looses all of it's utility highs to fit MWD MJD combo.

Armour Hurricane looks great with this module. Shield not really possible.

Tornado
Arty fit is paper thin and can only really fit a MJD. No space for an MWD too. This seems just fine to me.

AC fit - you've either got to armour tank it and loose a huge amount of DPS or make massive sacrifices in tank when shield fit. Seems fine.

Prophecy, Harbinger and Oracle all look pretty balanced with this module, very similar to Gallente.


Haven't looked at T2 yet or faction but I imagine the story is similar and this module tends to favour armour tankers.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#612 - 2014-05-20 11:52:30 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:

Haven't looked at T2 yet or faction but I imagine the story is similar and this module tends to favour armour tankers.


it doesn't
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#613 - 2014-05-20 13:38:51 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
[quote=Cannibal Kane]With disruptors becoming more and more useless.

Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate?


From the look of it CCP's stance is "if you want to make sure you kill someone who isn't a kiter you'll have to commit to the fight, no more risk averse kiting vs a slow target".
/quote]

Well doesnt that just make this more of a rock paper scissor game then it already is?

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#614 - 2014-05-20 13:50:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.



I think these mods are a little too binary for players to find clever or unexpected usage.

Given that the cooldown excludes jump out / jump in or vica versa to adjust range the use of these devices to alter range is rather resticted to ships that can do stuff at 100km or can use one to escape.

I think scripts that alter the jump range would make these things both Large and Medium much more adaptable to attack rather than just flee.

I would like to see scripts for
25km
50km
75km
100km
150km
200km
250km

also maybe a 50% boost for overheating.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#615 - 2014-05-20 13:51:16 UTC
I'm very undecided about this kind of module...

But on one hand, this does mean more people will be attacking blobs (without having to actually be in a blob) while still retaining the possible exit strategy of mjd. I'd say this means we'll see more bc fleets risk fighting blobs, and that, is content folks.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#616 - 2014-05-20 14:23:33 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights?


The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so.

Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable!


A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2014-05-20 14:28:33 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Aside from the mayhem in pvp this will cause with t3 bc's, I can actually see this being used to bring back more usability with pve with battlecruisers. Navy drake with mjd will be fearsome indeed and QUITE useful for lvl 4s with this. Might even be able to pull of a 100mn ab/mjd combo for lvl 5s...

EDIT:
Yup it fits with implants. Either geno set and 3% cpu or just 5% cpu implant. Run like buffer 100mn heavy tengu; just pull range and kite. Not exactly how well sig will work, but it's cap stable, and the hardeners will swap depending what you're fighting. Tanking hybrids with this setup if it takes any stray shots.
[Drake Navy Issue]

[High Slots]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
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Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
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[Med Slots]
Large Shield Extender II
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Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
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That is a tasty ass killmail.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#618 - 2014-05-20 14:46:20 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100.
Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight.

I'd support that. BC's are pretty fast as they are already.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#619 - 2014-05-20 15:37:18 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights?


The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so.

Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable!


A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card.


Don't be obtuse. Fitting to kite forces a ship to give up absolutely nothing that actually matters in practice, and a close range brawling ship needs everything a kiting ship does and more besides.
Jaz Antollare
UrAnus Probing Squad
#620 - 2014-05-20 16:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaz Antollare
How about a new t2 ship (BC for example) that can chose the working range of mjd? may be like 30-150km. Or the longer you charge it, the farther you jump? :D ( example: like for 30 sec of charging you can jump up to 200-300km )

Btw i like the idea about the new mmjd!