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Are there any semi-automatic tools being added that will let people insert their costs to quickly calculate their profit? (Basically removing the need for a spreadsheet)

I think people exaggerated the impact of tech II bpo's on the market - I believe bpo's set the floor price and bpc's set the ceiling price.

Floor pricing

Bpo's products can be manufactured cheaper than bpc's but the supply is fixed so they can set the lowest price at which a item can be manufactured (max weekly supply = max weekly production x number of active bpos which is a low number and never to increase)

So this price will exist only where the total demand for an item is equal or less than the bpo's production*.

Ceiling price

Imagine demand for an item exceeds maximum bpo production by 1. This demand will result in the market adjusting its price until such time as the price is sufficient for someone to invent one. So the minimum price is now the floor price for invention.

As demand increases it is purely invention and the activity of those inventing that set the max price - the ceiling.


[* the exception being those horridly neglected by developers ships and modules that the game has little time for - limited demand and thus supply give rise to either sales prices significantly below production as a manufacturer attempts to exit or significantly above when a speculator finds it costs very little to corner the entire supply and attempts to resells at a massive profit.

I have often thought Developers would be better spending their time looking at these items and either remove or improving them - Fozzie might be regretting there forlorn existence as people are using little used capital rigs prices to attempt to shoot down his freighter post.]

Those people must be dumbasses. If the freighter-changes lead to skyrocketing demand, lots of people will start producing them and drive the price down again.

The prices right now, without that demand, are irrelevant to this argument, you can't argue against capital rigs on freighters with "the rigs are too expensive", since that won't be the case anymore after the changes.

This may sound naive, but the whole BPO->copy->BPC->invent->T2 BPC seems like this "not good" complexity thing.

IF already planning massive changes to invention, why not BPO->intent->T2 BPC.

Click fest reduced, able to alter copy time and max run without significant impacts to invention,

Ask how many runs they want on their output T2 BPC (up to a max). Scale the time and number of input datacores and such to the runs on the output BPC.

If my math is correct, then the only ones that are the same or improved are ML 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10+ and the rest are penalized. I think the rounding method on conversion needs to be changed, ie. ML 1 | ML 4 | ML 9 need to be converted to ME 6% | ME 9% | ME 10%.

ML 00 = 10% / (1 + 00) = 10.00%, becomes ME 00% [base * (1 - 00%) / 0.9 = 11.11% waste]

ML 01 = 10% / (1 + 01) = 05.00%, becomes ME 05% [base * (1 - 05%) / 0.9 = 5.55% waste]

ML 02 = 10% / (1 + 02) = 03.33%, becomes ME 07% [base * (1 - 07%) / 0.9 = 3.33% waste]

ML 03 = 10% / (1 + 03) = 02.50%, becomes ME 08% [base * (1 - 08%) / 0.9 = 2.22% waste]
ML 04 = 10% / (1 + 04) = 02.00%, becomes ME 08%

ML 05 = 10% / (1 + 05) = 01.66%, becomes ME 09% [base * (1 - 09%) / 0.9 = 1.11% waste]
ML 06 = 10% / (1 + 06) = 01.43%, becomes ME 09%
ML 07 = 10% / (1 + 07) = 01.25%, becomes ME 09%
ML 08 = 10% / (1 + 08) = 01.11%, becomes ME 09%
ML 09 = 10% / (1 + 09) = 01.00%, becomes ME 09%

ML 10 = 10% / (1 + 10) = 00.91%, becomes ME 10% [base * (1 - 10%) / 0.9 = 0.00% waste]
ML 11 = 10% / (1 + 11) = 00.83%, becomes ME 10%

Greyscale, if you're interested, I made a big ol' effortpost on balancing invention and T2 BPOs here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4620181#post4620181

TL;DR, BPOs get capped at 1-3 ME levels less than the best possible invention ME level, T2 BPOs become carrots for long-term and diligent inventors, helping them improve their productivity. New, now nerfed, T2 BPOs are distributed through some means to active inventors.

Depending on what you're inventing, starting from copies doesn't save you much. Most module or ammo BPOs are not that expensive compared to the other process inputs. If you're thinking to start with ships, you'll get soaked badly and probably deserve it.

An example that has served well in the past, but I haven't made in quite a while are t2 medium shield extenders. T1 BPO is about 150k isk. The datacores for one invention run cost more. A couple others I do still regularly produce are about 400k per BPO.

On the ship front, I have a basilisk BPC I invented which has never offered the chance of profit. I keep it as a reminder to take better care in choosing ships to invent.

And while we are at it, there's a way to make things even simpler:

Both the old system and the proposed system have the scale upside-down
(more ME/PE = better = less waste) and thus require for some calculations
to get from ME to waste (addition and division in the old system,
multiplication and subtraction in the new system).

Why not simply "less = better = less waste" and replace the ME and PE stats
in units of levels by "material waste" and "time waste" stats in units of % directly?

Proposal:
New blueprints start at "waste: 10.0%" (and the description directly says so).
Every level of research reduces that stat by 1% (0.1% imho would be better).
Blueprints which have reached 0.0% waste (after 10 or 100 levels of research) are perfect.

You can still implement any changes as you planned, but the end result would be easier
for new players to understand and less confusing (old ME vs new ME) for veterans.

Thoughts?

I'm very interested in 'crafting' side of all MMOs I've played in the past. Industry seemed great to me. I amassed capital, bought POS and modules, trained freighter pilots, manufacturers, copiers and inventors, built a huge excel spreadsheet. In the end I'm very disappointed with how tedious industry is.

What I find annoying in industry to the point of quitting this side of the game:

1. You need to log in every 75 minutes to start invention jobs on T2 modules and every 60 minutes for drones. People have lives, you know. But you cannot queue! I hated WoW for forcing you to log in every day to do dailies. But here. Every hour.
2. POS tetris: you have to move items between modules at the POS, oftentimes you have to split them, because not all fit. That is so ridiculous I cannot find a reason for the existence of such a mechanic. All other POS mechanics are so ancient, clumsy and outdated that I don't even want to mention. That's a miracle how they managed to allow us use labs' and assembly arrays' hangars within distance larger than 3500 m! That must have been a revolutionary change.
3. Thousands of blueprints that don't stack and take long time to move between corp hangars or ships, lagging the client.
4. Game does not give you any sort of identification of how many slots your manufacturer/scientist has free except counting running jobs.

I don't care about complexity of industrial calculations or such. I don't care about T2 BPOs.

What really brings me down is:
1. CCP devs don't play their own game.
2. CCP will never fix POSes (they will never rewrite their code because it's not 'documented').
3. Lots of talent is leaving CCP.
4. CCP is shifting its focus from veterans to 'new players'. It means death to the old EVE we all love in the long run. CCP is forgetting its principles in pursuit of money (ship painting is another example).

I've read so many good suggestions here and in other threads. I hope devs listen to their player base because real pilots know what's good for the game.

Not for Crius or Kronos, sorry. We don't have the time to evaluate the impact of any possible changes given the other work we have on our plates right now.



I'll try and remember to recheck my math tomorrow.



I'll try and remember to give this a read too.



Once we throw out the concept of "waste", and frame blueprint research as a straight-up improvement, I don't think we need to go down this road. Numbers that are better when they're lower are generally suboptimal in terms of players understanding what's going on (see f.ex THAC0).