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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

First post First post First post
Author
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#321 - 2014-05-18 18:24:57 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.

How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping.

since this is the future, would be nice that the second a mjd activates a orange blip appears right where they will land for obvious reasons.

still do not support this on ABC's.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

PaulsAvatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2014-05-18 18:27:26 UTC
I think I like this new module.

+1
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#323 - 2014-05-18 18:48:55 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.

How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping.


still a get out of jail free card for attack 'align like a frigate' battlecruisers
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#324 - 2014-05-18 19:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.

Key phrase being "see how they went".
We can see that they've been mildly effective in increasing the popularity of battleships, and they're especially nice when paired with marauders.
As soon as you start giving this ability to other ships (we were really worried about this with the mobileMJD but you nerfed it to the point of this not being a problem) you diminish one of the few advantages that battleships had which made them more attractive and viable for PVP. This is a class of ship which for all intents and purposes is completely abysmal in mobility and had almost no ability to fight discriminately.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool.
The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable.

Then maybe you should look at properly rebalancing the mobility attributes of these ships. For one you also increased the signature radius of ABCs to make them more vulnerable to bombs, something which wasn't really necessary because they were quite vulnerable to begin with. Giving these ships MJDs does little to alleviate the bomb threat, but it gives them far too much mobility to be balanced.

ABCs don't have issues with picking fights and being able to disengage at will. CBCs have a much more difficult time of this but I still don't believe an MJD is the answer. You're trying to do open heart surgery with a pickaxe while the scalpel is sitting right next to you..

CCP Fozzie wrote:
It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.

What are you talking about? No they aren't. Even at MJDO 5 the window to activate this module is extremely small - more than likely what would happen is that if anyone tried to MJD they'd activate it too late (one second is not enough time for a reaction especially when coupled with the fact that your server runs in one second ticks), guaranteeing that they'll die to bombs because of the increased signature radius.

In other words, trying to MJD away from bombs is as dumb as trying to MWD away from them.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.

We understand that, but we feel that this skews the balance far, far too heavily in favor of "we were severely outmatched but it didn't matter since we can always disengage with minimal losses."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#325 - 2014-05-18 19:03:20 UTC
Absolutely terrible idea, completely opposed to this module.
Samuel Nathas
Disciples of Red Tower
#326 - 2014-05-18 19:12:09 UTC
Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.

Now you have a chance to pick several targets, and scram them so they can't jump. :) Also, the rest of your fleet can tactically warp (dictors) to other gates and put up bubbles as the timer cooldown for those MMJD is 3 minutes. You can set up a trap basically. Don't you think?
Also, all these people spooling up the MJD can't deactivate it (as far as I know), and those caught are most likely to be destroyed. Not to mention that fitting MMJD takes up one valuable mid slot.

So what is the problem? Adapt or die.
Bionic Wolf
Doomheim
#327 - 2014-05-18 19:31:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release..


The thing is every expansion seems to bring a new way of avoiding combat and risk. Bugger all development goes into increasing danger and risk to the game especially in small gang/solo situations. I would give you the ceptor changes but even that has been largely offset by so many people using them as a near invulnerable, very cheap, taxi service to travel from one place to another. By increasing survivability in so many ships you've made it so there is hardly any realistic targets for small gang pvpers, particularly in 0.0.

I agree that BC's needed a buff, but this isn't the right one, personally I think a large part of the problem is that cruisers are too fast, I don't think it makes much sense that cruisers are faster than destroyers for example. You could even have provided the BC's with a new unique role of their own, maybe a new tackle related one.

And just because the original plan for MJD's wasn't for them to be unique to battleships doesn't mean that feedback and results shouldn't affect how you develop (or not develop!) them further. There is a lot of people who believe that the reasons MJD's have been on the whole successful is because they're unique to battleships, and that they allow them to compensate for vulnerabilities.

Just please stop calling giving players more opportunites to escape/avoid combat, while rarely increasing risk 'development'.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#328 - 2014-05-18 19:35:06 UTC
Having the MMJD work exactly the same as the LMJD is a little boring and doesn't help most BCs in any PVP situation other than escape. My suggestion (I'm going to say it again) is to make the jump range around 60km, the spool up around 10sec, and the cool down 2 mins. That's about ~30% off each stat, this should make it competitive for PVP, PVE, and escape tactics.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#329 - 2014-05-18 19:46:28 UTC
Samuel Nathas wrote:
Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.


When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets?
Kyria Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#330 - 2014-05-18 19:52:44 UTC
Could be nice... but it looks like you've forgotten about implications.

Btw, we already have mobile MJD for all ship, why do we need a module that'll only help people avoiding being tackled ?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#331 - 2014-05-18 19:58:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok, I'm now caught up with this thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I'll be taking the good points brought up in this thread and discussing them with the CSM and the other designers here at the office.

One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.

I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool.
The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.

In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.

Like I said, we'll be taking all this feedback into account. Thanks to all the good posters who can manage to discuss their opinions in a reasonable and coherent manner.


The solo argument is a non-argument as well tbh. Kiters are all about having options, they can pick and choose what to attack, when to do so and when to GTFO. MJD gives a BC a similar option but only against kiters, beyond that they're still slow, easy to engage or stay away from. Besides, lets be honest; most people in this thread don't give a fck about soloing, they just try to play the solo card because MJD might mess up their bubble/crow blob backbone and they're desperately trying to come up with :reasons:.

It's a funky idea and sits well with the concept of CBC as it is right now; it can't really engage anything but if something wants to attack it'll have to commit to that fight.

Just do NOT put it on ABC, you'll create a monster if you do.
Samuel Nathas
Disciples of Red Tower
#332 - 2014-05-18 20:01:06 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Samuel Nathas wrote:
Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.


When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets?



scouts don't have MJD's :) and that is the point :)
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2014-05-18 20:53:12 UTC
I'm not sure if this is good or bad. More could be done to encourage good fights and prevent running away though, that's for sure.

It does seem that recent changes have focused just on the one side (running away) but not on the other (more options for locking down targets, better mechanics to encourage fights/PvP), which is probably more important.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#334 - 2014-05-18 21:02:20 UTC
Samuel Nathas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Samuel Nathas wrote:
Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.


When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets?



scouts don't have MJD's :) and that is the point :)


I dont understand. The interceptor jumps into the gatecamp, and his fleet mjds in the previous system in a panic?
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#335 - 2014-05-18 21:03:45 UTC
Bcs are in a really ****** place right now because of their inability to apply damage to anything small and their terrible base speed. The current meta is defined by the agility of cruisers and the application bonuses of a few niche ships, most noticeably the ishtar. The propagation of sig reduction bonuses and the general increase of speed of every ship since tiericide has left cbcs slow and ineffective. With slow warp speeds, slow movement speeds and no application to speak of the cbc is left with dps and tank it can't use, the idiot younger brother of the battleship doctrine, less effective and more bombable.

To make them relevant again you need to go back and say "Okay, what proportion of the max speed of the omen did the harbinger used to have? What proportion of the max agility of the omen did it used to have? How did it apply relative to the omen (omen's optimal range creates better tracking in real terms)?" and realise the degree to which they've been completely overshadowed by tiericide. Currently the game is "are you fast? if not do you have a crazy application bonus? if not are you insanely tanky?". If the answer to all 3 is no then it's not used and with cbcs it's no and mmjds won't change that.
Vivianne Athonille
WHolely Unacceptable
#336 - 2014-05-18 21:26:27 UTC
I and a few others who Liked my post on Page 1 are still curious if you intend to allow "all" Command Ships to fit this MJD. And by "all" we mean the Industrial Command Ship -- Orca.

I believe you have been looking for ways to encourage players to put the Orca on-grid. Having this available as an escape tool may be a step in that direction.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#337 - 2014-05-18 21:39:41 UTC
Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#338 - 2014-05-18 22:04:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.


logistics nerf when?
This. Stacking penalties on remote repairs please.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#339 - 2014-05-18 22:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Reppyk wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.


logistics nerf when?
This. Stacking penalties on remote repairs please.

No.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Yelika Khan
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#340 - 2014-05-18 22:34:24 UTC
This is bad and you should feel bad about it. Evil