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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#361 - 2014-05-17 22:00:33 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
And... that means... that you will always have to import... because someone else controls the production materials... If that importing is more difficult or has a high barrier to entry (which is what the fuel and freighter changes create) then you are NOT going to be producing in null- you're going to be doing so near your source for the materials...

This is entrenched logic. It means you can import, or you can go fight the person you're buying from for the resources instead. You're seeing the problem but you're trying to solve it based on current logic, rather than re-thinking and coming up with another solution, aka adapting.
Quote:
You seem to think continuing to attack me because you're butthurt about something I said on twitter is at all a good argument. I've not mentioned benefits or injuries to myself at any point, yet you've spent all but a small portion of this last post attacking me or my affiliation rather than having anything to say.

They have their incentives and approach to their goal set up backwards, which is what I've said from the very first post. That's far different from blindly hating it because it doesn't serve me.

I didn't start by attacking you, I started by mocking your terrible all-caps rage post which didn't do anything close to expressing a logical train of thought. You've since wound that in and are now actually making points.
Will CCP ever manage to create a landscape that looks like I think it will? I don't know. But if it is going to happen then it needs constructive criticism from all points of view, not thread-shitting by people more interested in sitting back and thinking "oh wow lolz what a sick burn I just did in all caps".

The other reason I quoted your post and said "ahahahahahaah" is because it's a hilarious over-reaction to what can barely be considered a nerf; 1-4% change.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Maxdig
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#362 - 2014-05-17 22:00:37 UTC
Buzz Dura wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It should be noted:

You can't fit 3 T2 cargo rigs on a freighter or JF.

The JF only has 2 slots.

The Freighter only has 400 calibration.

T2 cargo rigs have a calibration cost of 150. So that's 2 T2 rigs, and 1 T1 rig.


My bad.. Less cargo guys !

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T9Cq_v0MiiqJmQp1p1eKapPdQG3i1R6U_qP44zN-zqI/edit#gid=1334759259


Your Old Obelisk numbers are wrong by 100k.
Dave Stark
#363 - 2014-05-17 22:00:39 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
To me it seems like a really big burger full of fecal matter.

yup, people were told it would be every time they asked for it.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#364 - 2014-05-17 22:00:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
One thing which should also be noted about T2 cargo rig prices.

Right now, in Jita, they're 725 million or so.

They jumped to that price some time between the 2nd and the 5th


https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/marketdisplay.php?typeid=31127&regionid=10000002

The actual build cost is around 400 million with an invention cost of around 2 million.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/31127/-4/0/-4/1

I wouldn't expect it to stay at that 725 price particularly long, once they start getting used.


They jumped to that price about 10 seconds after Fozzie announced it on the stream. I was in Jita watching them. I am a poor so I certainly didn't buy any for 240mil and relist for 750. Not did I buy out almost all the t2 materials. I swear.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#365 - 2014-05-17 22:01:12 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many from Red-Frog whining. You should be happy, these changes will discourage quite a bit of your competition.

Adapt and continue to dominate FFS. Roll


That is quite obviously a post from ignorance, so let me tell you how it is. Red/Black/Blue Frog do not really have any competition to begin with. Their market is those that are not part of an alliance with a large logistical backbone, Goon Logistics, N3/PL Logistics, BNI Logistics etc, are not actual competition to them as those alliances are not the consumer base.


Well in that case they can just raise their prices a bit and all is good.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#366 - 2014-05-17 22:01:18 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:
I'm in the freighter business actively for over two years now and I have to say something about these changes. I don't agree with them, while I really like the idea of being able to modify my freighter by more or less tank/cargo/speed.

Freighter hauling is a very dull gameplay and I was hoping for some rebalance ideas that would actually reflect that. However, what I read from these changes, it is actually the opposite. Consider; every freighter pilot will now have to pay extra ~200m extra ISK for rigs to even activate this rebalance at the first place. This will not only annoy all freighter pilots, it will also raise the overall price of a freighter, raise the courier rewards to balance this ISK sink -> annoy contract customers and shake the business all around. And angry customers - not good!

While it is true you will be able to rig your freighter to the original state (for 200m) and getting extra ~4% cargohold capacity (while losing agility by adding the hull rigs), in the freighter world, the 4% cargohold capacity bonus means nothing and agility means everything. This business is all about speed, all about collateral numbers and all about round cargo capacity numbers when comes to hauling. I know this. I do this every day. It does not justify the extra 200m cost into every of your freighters from now on.

The other possibilities how to rig your freighters are good: being able to carry more and faster, but with less tank, this is in the true spirit of EVE and I would love pay for them if I would choose I would like to use them.

However, freighter business is already an extremely expensive business and these changes forces every freighter pilot to spend extra 200m to even enjoy the Kronos release and get either the same freighter as before or modify their freighter into weak/strong hybrid they might not even want.

Please reconsider these changes. Hauling is the backbone of every profession in EVE and freighter gameplay itself is a very dull and very soul-draining profession to do. I didn't and don't expect some massive gameplay overhaul for freighters, but at least do not hurt this unique, important and somewhat soul sensitive profession by forcing players to sink hundreds of millions ISK into getting the same slighty nerfed, or modified and overall still nerfed, freighters. Thank you.


You're basically saying you're against CCP adding fitting slots to your ship, because you have to pay for the modules that go in them?
I don't honestly know how you think CCP can work around that.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Paranoid Loyd
#367 - 2014-05-17 22:01:39 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many from Red-Frog whining. You should be happy, these changes will discourage quite a bit of your competition.

Adapt and continue to dominate FFS. Roll


That is quite obviously a post from ignorance, so let me tell you how it is. Red/Black/Blue Frog do not really have any competition to begin with. Their market is those that are not part of an alliance with a large logistical backbone, Goon Logistics, N3/PL Logistics, BNI Logistics etc, are not actual competition to them as those alliances are not the consumer base.


What in my post lead you to believe I was referring to null-sec logistics?

I was referring to the competition that comes from most solo players using their own freighter as opposed to using a dedicated logistics service. Those that are discouraged from these changes will now be more likely to seek alternatives to investing in the necessary components to adapt to these changes.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
KBLUEJACK54
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#368 - 2014-05-17 22:03:37 UTC
Looooool..Rigs in Jump freighters, Just accept the nerf guys, the best...or rather the worst is yet to come, just wait till they turn there attention to the Rorqual as that grinning fool announced at fanfest.

Capital Industrial ships romping around belts just because some rabid PvP Dev thinks it is a 'Good Idea', makes you wonder what these guys are smoking nights.

Thanks CCP for offering Null Sec everything and giving them nothing.
Talcuris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2014-05-17 22:07:08 UTC
Those JF changes ... wow that hurts like anything.
I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...
With the nerf to cargo holds, it becomes just about absolutely impractical to fit anything BUT cargohold expanders.

So, in total an almost unnoticeable buff to cargoholds with T2 rigs.

That's it for the positives, on the negative side:
Cost for a JF goes up by more than a billion.
Cargohold rigs hurt the tankyness that was switched to armor, making them even more squishy after people have been complaining for years that they are too fragile to survive anything but the cheapest suicide gank.
Align time goes way up.
Fuel gets much more expensive.

All that for what, around 10k m³ more cargo space? We expected that there'd be something to make it impossible to hit the 500k mark for the ihub upgrades, but this?
Losing 100k m³ is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much to make anything except cargo rigs viable, and the really exciting thing was to have a choice. This makes the heavy nerfs even more bitter to swallow.
Don't know about elsewhere, but you've managed to sink the mood on the TS here straight to rock bottom.
Kelgh
Doomheim
#370 - 2014-05-17 22:08:18 UTC
KBLUEJACK54 wrote:
Looooool..Rigs in Jump freighters, Just accept the nerf guys, the best...or rather the worst is yet to come, just wait till they turn there attention to the Rorqual as that grinning fool announced at fanfest.

Capital Industrial ships romping around belts just because some rabid PvP Dev thinks it is a 'Good Idea', makes you wonder what these guys are smoking nights.

Thanks CCP for offering Null Sec everything and giving them nothing.



yeah like any one is going to put that ship in the belts

CCP needs to start playing the game
Staaren
Egg Operations
#371 - 2014-05-17 22:12:29 UTC
Here is a thought:

CCP give some industrialist players in Eve jobs as Devs and put them in charge of balancing ships, especially with your intentions & focus of Kronos.

Roll
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#372 - 2014-05-17 22:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


Talcuris wrote:

I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...



because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#373 - 2014-05-17 22:14:35 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You're basically saying you're against CCP adding fitting slots to your ship, because you have to pay for the modules that go in them?
I don't honestly know how you think CCP can work around that.

Low slots. No rigs.

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#374 - 2014-05-17 22:15:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.


Not necessarily. But I didn't expect a huge overall nerf.

That being said I am overall OK with the changes as long as they either fix the Rhea cargo or normalize fuel usage.
Talcuris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2014-05-17 22:17:31 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


Talcuris wrote:

I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...



because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.


Yeah, but the point stands that there _is_ no choice now. I can take nerfs, but this on top of that, thanks a lot.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#376 - 2014-05-17 22:20:02 UTC
Talcuris wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:


I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot.


Talcuris wrote:

I was kind of excited when the rig slots were anounced at fanfest that there would actually be a choice of rigs. Alignment speed, warp speed, tankyness, cargo hold ...



because u thought u were getting a straight buff to a ship that didnt need a buff. No real gain other than choice was due.


Yeah, but the point stands that there _is_ no choice now. I can take nerfs, but this on top of that, thanks a lot.


u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paranoid Loyd
#377 - 2014-05-17 22:20:35 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You're basically saying you're against CCP adding fitting slots to your ship, because you have to pay for the modules that go in them?
I don't honestly know how you think CCP can work around that.

Low slots. No rigs.


And we've come full circle, too bad it's too late now. Twisted

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#378 - 2014-05-17 22:21:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

u can exceed a current freighters capacity.
u can exceed a current freighters tank.
u can exceed a current freighters speed.

but u cant have all three at once. u have to choose.


Which is the problem in the first place.

They wanted it all, without having to think about it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#379 - 2014-05-17 22:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Horrible. We wanted flexibility in using freighters and you give us the one solution that costs a ton of ISK to make changes. If we want flexibility we are going to have to have 5 Charons all with different rig configurations.

Good God you made the ORCA flexible and that is the model we were asking for but you give us this uninspired 'i spent a whole 2 mins thinking about what to do solution'. I use the word 'solution' here rather loosely as this is just a bunch of crap.

Someone please Fire CCP Fozzie and find a competent replacement.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#380 - 2014-05-17 22:22:53 UTC
Buzz Dura wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It should be noted:

You can't fit 3 T2 cargo rigs on a freighter or JF.

The JF only has 2 slots.

The Freighter only has 400 calibration.

T2 cargo rigs have a calibration cost of 150. So that's 2 T2 rigs, and 1 T1 rig.


My bad.. Less cargo guys !

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T9Cq_v0MiiqJmQp1p1eKapPdQG3i1R6U_qP44zN-zqI/edit#gid=1334759259

You are also missing the three rig slots on the Charon and Obelisk.

I took the liberty of cleaning it up for you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cws5fKMYvZjZFCAFaNM9PZuszil-dX3Cc-dEXq0-svc/edit?usp=sharing

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.