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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Author
Labrena
Muppets Released
Forged of Fire
#321 - 2014-05-17 21:04:46 UTC
I don't see the need for the nerf to cargo capacity on the ships.

You've already shown that you can restrict what goes into bays, so you simply make it so packaged capital ships and station containers cannot be put into courier contracts and into the cargo bay's of freighters.

People were not asking for rigs to be added to freighters, to get an overall nerf without spending another 1-2b on their ships.

It really seems like no thought at all was put into these changes.

You could be better served making a sub-freighter line, with the 500k cargo line, and letting the current freighters the option to ADD more cargo space or EHP or agility/speed.
Hauling Hyena
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2014-05-17 21:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hauling Hyena
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Personally this won't affect my corp much but I can see how this can be a major PITA for organized groups with specific cargo restrictions like alliance logistics, red frog etc.


Thank you... this is a major ****-up for our business, so what this is saying that if we want to stick to our 860k m³ we need to use freighters that, instead of 1.2b cost 2b including rigs and will take even LESS (it's around 400m right now) ships to gank...

Yeah, thank you CCP...
Jack Mancetti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#323 - 2014-05-17 21:05:13 UTC
Well Mr.Fuzzie i know now what you and CCP want from us OUR ISK .

Cool , now we can fit expensive rigs on our expensiv Hauler and will lose it again and again and again against 15 destroyer.
lemme see the golden donkey which ***** us the golden isk for it?

Sorry but did u realy play eve . . i dont think so

Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#324 - 2014-05-17 21:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Caroline Grace
I'm in the freighter business actively for over two years now and I have to say something about these changes. I don't agree with them, while I really like the idea of being able to modify my freighter by more or less tank/cargo/speed.

Freighter hauling is a very dull gameplay and I was hoping for some rebalance ideas that would actually reflect that. However, what I read from these changes, it is actually the opposite. Consider; every freighter pilot will now have to pay extra ~200m extra ISK for rigs to even activate this rebalance at the first place. This will not only annoy all freighter pilots, it will also raise the overall price of a freighter, raise the courier rewards to balance this ISK sink -> annoy contract customers and shake the business all around. And angry customers - not good!

While it is true you will be able to rig your freighter to the original state (for 200m) and getting extra ~4% cargohold capacity (while losing agility by adding the hull rigs), in the freighter world, the 4% cargohold capacity bonus means nothing and agility means everything. This business is all about speed, all about collateral numbers and all about round cargo capacity numbers when comes to hauling. I know this. I do this every day. It does not justify the extra 200m cost into every of your freighters from now on.

The other possibilities how to rig your freighters are good: being able to carry more and faster, but with less tank, this is in the true spirit of EVE and I would love pay for them if I would choose I would like to use them.

However, freighter business is already an extremely expensive business and these changes forces every freighter pilot to spend extra 200m to even enjoy the Kronos release and get either the same freighter as before or modify their freighter into weak/strong hybrid they might not even want.

Please reconsider these changes. Hauling is the backbone of every profession in EVE and freighter gameplay itself is a very dull and very soul-draining profession to do. I didn't and don't expect some massive gameplay overhaul for freighters, but at least do not hurt this unique, important and somewhat soul sensitive profession by forcing players to sink hundreds of millions ISK into getting the same slighty nerfed, or modified and overall still nerfed, freighters. Thank you.

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.

Belinda HwaFang
Iris Kinetics - Aquisitions
#325 - 2014-05-17 21:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Belinda HwaFang
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
The whole drama is based on bad CCP communication. They should stand out and say "we don't like everything built in Sobaseki, sold in Jita and moved to everywhere else. We want you to build stuff locally. Hauling from Jita is meant to be an auxiliary source of items. Because of this, we nerf Freighters and JFs to the ground, like we did with AFK-sentry fleets and AoE Doomsdays"

Again: I like this change and I believe it will revitalize industry in nullsec, which is very much needed.


As much as I'd like Gevlon's vision of CCP's vision for the future to be correct, I don't think it is.

I feel that this will mean a minor but significant nerf to all F and JF hauling, and that people will still (sadly) build in Sobaseki, sell in Jita, buy in Jita and Jump to null. I also feel that the CCP design team probably already suspect that this is what will happen.

It's going to mean higher prices for everyone, PLEX inflation, and most importantly, no new exciting pioneering gameplay for anyone with the exception of those that do freighter ganks.

I would have preferred to see a more radical change to the way that logistics chains could be handled.

I would love to see more people do industry outside highsec but I fear we will remain in a quiet and cold minority.

This change feels like a band aid rather than a well thought out change for the new New Eden economic landscape.

CCP, you have a new release cycle with a new Lead Games Designer with a new vision for the future. Take this opportunity to freeze these changes and consider more carefully how these changes could integrate with your vision of industry in the future. Veteran players are looking for new challenges, and new and smaller scale players just getting into these ships will feel the nerfs the hardest.

Once you have the complete picture of how to change the industrial landscape of EVE then by all means give us these nerfs.
Soldari Orion
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2014-05-17 21:07:43 UTC
Nope. Nope nope nope.

Devs, you're adding choice, where choice does not add to the gameplay of hauling. There is no need for a game mechanic for choice of ships when it comes to freighters and hauling.

These changes do not help hauling, and are not going to provide meaningful content; the only reason that I can imagine they're being done is change for the sake of change. People said they wanted rigs because they wanted a choice on top of their current use, not choice in order to get to their current use
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#327 - 2014-05-17 21:12:25 UTC
Going back to standard freighters, has anyone ran the numbers for a comparison of an align/agility rigged freighter as compared to current freighter values?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#328 - 2014-05-17 21:12:38 UTC
Soldari Orion wrote:

These changes do not help hauling, and are not going to provide meaningful content; the only reason that I can imagine they're being done is change for the sake of change. People said they wanted rigs because they wanted a choice on top of their current use, not choice in order to get to their current use


They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to get straight buffed when the ship class was in a perfectly fine state of balance before.

But that's not how EVE works. As they were repeatedly told, and as is now demonstrated.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#329 - 2014-05-17 21:13:20 UTC
Buzz Dura wrote:


for those who missed some figures...


What about Fenrir and Providence?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#330 - 2014-05-17 21:14:20 UTC
Labrena wrote:
I don't see the need for the nerf to cargo capacity on the ships.

You've already shown that you can restrict what goes into bays, so you simply make it so packaged capital ships and station containers cannot be put into courier contracts and into the cargo bay's of freighters.
That would require the construction of a completely new special hold that wouldn't be affected by the rigs anyway. So if you want to do what people wanted to do with rigs, you now have to create new rigs to alter special holds, which will alter the balance of other ships…

See how trying to solve your problem cascades into multiple new problems? Why not just make it easy and reduce cargo space to make sure that the end result doesn't get too high? What is the value of getting so much higher cargo holds and how does it outweigh the headache created by all the problems it spawns? Oh, and what makes it a good idea to have those huge cargo holds to begin with? Restrictions are valuable in the decisions they create.

Quote:
People were not asking for rigs to be added to freighters, to get an overall nerf without spending another 1-2b on their ships.
They rather were and were told as much on every occasion. They just chose to ignore the obvious downsides of what they were asking for.

Quote:
It really seems like no thought at all was put into these changes.
It looks like a lot of thought went into them. They even managed to reduce the required nerfs to more palatable levels than one would have expected. No, the problem is that little thought went into the demand that freighters be given rigs, since that's where the problem lies. We will never get back our excellent-at-everything freighters now that people have gotten their wish of being able to choose what their ship should be good at.
Sigras
Conglomo
#331 - 2014-05-17 21:15:02 UTC
Lets be honest, how many of you fully filled your freighters anyway? If you did, what did you haul in them? because its profitable to gank anything over 400,000,000

the extra hull from the hull rigs are going to make ganks a bit harder to pull off, and gank scam hauling contracts just that much easier to spot because theyre going to be bigger than a hull rigged freighter can haul.
Kelgh
Doomheim
#332 - 2014-05-17 21:17:21 UTC
what an insult this is

getting ppl all happy at fanfest with yeah freighter getting rigg

and bamm hit them with a nerf

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#333 - 2014-05-17 21:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Sigras wrote:
Lets be honest, how many of you fully filled your freighters anyway? If you did, what did you haul in them? because its profitable to gank anything over 400,000,000

the extra hull from the hull rigs are going to make ganks a bit harder to pull off, and gank scam hauling contracts just that much easier to spot because theyre going to be bigger than a hull rigged freighter can haul.


I do it all the time. I need the full 918k m³ my Providence provides almost every day.

Besides, these changes make it immensely more complex to get a freighter for your courier contracts, because you cannot really find a sweet spot anymore. Until now it was the 860k of a Fenrir or 880k of a Providence in order to allow all freighters to move your stuff. After this patch? Have fun trying to find that sweet spot... (and no, the base cargohold is not that spot.Blink)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Sigras
Conglomo
#334 - 2014-05-17 21:18:26 UTC
Soldari Orion wrote:
Nope. Nope nope nope.

Devs, you're adding choice, where choice does not add to the gameplay of hauling. There is no need for a game mechanic for choice of ships when it comes to freighters and hauling.

These changes do not help hauling, and are not going to provide meaningful content; the only reason that I can imagine they're being done is change for the sake of change. People said they wanted rigs because they wanted a choice on top of their current use, not choice in order to get to their current use

The devs of a game want you to make meaningful decisions? TwistedHow Dare They?!Twisted
Sid Meier wrote:
A game is a series of interesting choices.
Sigras
Conglomo
#335 - 2014-05-17 21:20:38 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Lets be honest, how many of you fully filled your freighters anyway? If you did, what did you haul in them? because its profitable to gank anything over 400,000,000

the extra hull from the hull rigs are going to make ganks a bit harder to pull off, and gank scam hauling contracts just that much easier to spot because theyre going to be bigger than a hull rigged freighter can haul.

I do it all the time. I need the full 918k m³ my Providence provides almost every day.

what the heck do you haul? even tritanium would make you gank worthy!

On a completely unrelated note, where are you doing this?
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2014-05-17 21:20:57 UTC
What a disappointing set of changes.

I doubt I have anything to add that has been not said in the past pages, but I feel that reducing cargo so much that even a cargo rigged ship has less cargo and less tank and is slower and less agile than it was prepatch is a poor idea.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#337 - 2014-05-17 21:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Sigras wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Lets be honest, how many of you fully filled your freighters anyway? If you did, what did you haul in them? because its profitable to gank anything over 400,000,000

the extra hull from the hull rigs are going to make ganks a bit harder to pull off, and gank scam hauling contracts just that much easier to spot because theyre going to be bigger than a hull rigged freighter can haul.

I do it all the time. I need the full 918k m³ my Providence provides almost every day.

what the heck do you haul? even tritanium would make you gank worthy!

On a completely unrelated note, where are you doing this?


Courier contracts? And some other bits and pieces that need hauling? Roll

You'd like to know, right? Use your money to find me. No effort, no gains. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2014-05-17 21:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
Sigras wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Lets be honest, how many of you fully filled your freighters anyway? If you did, what did you haul in them? because its profitable to gank anything over 400,000,000

the extra hull from the hull rigs are going to make ganks a bit harder to pull off, and gank scam hauling contracts just that much easier to spot because theyre going to be bigger than a hull rigged freighter can haul.

I do it all the time. I need the full 918k m³ my Providence provides almost every day.

what the heck do you haul? even tritanium would make you gank worthy!

On a completely unrelated note, where are you doing this?


It is EXTREMLY easy to hit the max cargo capacity on freighters if you are moving solv upgrades. It is even easier to hit the max cargo capacity on JF if you move fuel blocks.

EDIT: If you build POSes it is also really easy to hit the max cargo capacity. Capital construction components are huge.
Chinicata Shihari
Perkone
Caldari State
#339 - 2014-05-17 21:28:18 UTC
I like most of these changes.

However i do have one problem with them. They allow you to specialize each freighter for a new role. This means the 5 or so charons i currently have can each have a role. However this is very expensive with each charon and fit it will come to 1.3-1.4bil. that is my one and only concern
DeDes
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#340 - 2014-05-17 21:31:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
T1 rigs are easily enough to bring normal freighters above their current cargo values.

Yes, but I fly a JF. I picked it because of its nippy align speed, good tank, and descent-enough cargo hold. I can restore one of those at a massive cost.


Actually the tank on your JF is about the same as before, thanks to the extra resists. So you get one of the three for free! Blink

But yes, the fact that this is a small reduction in Jump Freighter power is completely intended.


The problem with both Freighters and JF's was that most of there EHP was in structure so there was nothing anyone could do to change that. just the balances to the shield/armor/hull would have been fine as at least people could bump up skills and use implants to get more out of them.

BUT tih JF's at a cost of 6.5bil isk with just 200mil payout when they die you really have to have a better plan or a better reason for why your nerfing the cargo space as well. Especially when your asking us to spend an 1.5bil isk on T2 capital rig to get a JF space to a little over what it is now.

8 Billion isk? Seriously? Meanwhile 600 mil isk worth of T1 BC's can still kill a JF. Hell 60 Mil isk worth of catalysts should.

And also your adding 50% to what it is already the most expensive ship for Jump fuel use.

You want this to make better sense then 2 T1 rigs to get to about the same cargo. T2 rigs get above. Or for those who want to sacrifice space for tank they have better options to tank it up without losses 30% of there cargo space.

Or another option add cargo space to the benefits of JF skill.