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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Kelgh
Doomheim
#341 - 2014-05-17 21:32:06 UTC
When can we expect a devblog on these massive changes to freighters and jumpfreighters

I would like some more explanation of these changes
Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
#342 - 2014-05-17 21:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Dura
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Buzz Dura wrote:
Buzz Dura wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/b4obsew.png


for those who missed some figures...


What about Fenrir and Providence?


Look at the pattern of the dev post. so you get the same diffrence of m3 as you go "down the race" xD

That mean max cargo will be 22km3 less than obe on a providence et 22km3 less again on a fenrir.

That mean all freighter can have 1+M m3.



What is disapointing here is tat it's just a mix of buff/nerf with rig and malus.. I find the work on the DST much more refreshing !!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#343 - 2014-05-17 21:35:49 UTC
It should be noted:

You can't fit 3 T2 cargo rigs on a freighter or JF.

The JF only has 2 slots.

The Freighter only has 400 calibration.

T2 cargo rigs have a calibration cost of 150. So that's 2 T2 rigs, and 1 T1 rig.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dave Stark
#344 - 2014-05-17 21:37:30 UTC
Kelgh wrote:
When can we expect a devblog on these massive changes to freighters and jumpfreighters

I would like some more explanation of these changes


there's only so many ways to say "players kept whining about not having fitting options for freighters, so we gave them to you and you all whined about it"
Myst Valkyria
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#345 - 2014-05-17 21:37:45 UTC
This is the worst change I could have ever imagined. With these changes, the Fenrir is now the weakest, smallest cargo freighter. You've basically made it useless.

You are taking frail, sitting ducks, that cost 1.5 billion ISK without rigs, and making them even frailer sitting ducks....with less cargo capacity. This is not balance, this is insanity. Freightering goods around New Eden is a very risky job. When people asked for rigs, they didn't want to have to use rigs to get back to the place where they were, but with more ISK to shell out. They wanted the option to customize their current freighter. Nobody in all of Eve has ever said that freighters were over powered. If freighters were overpowered, then we wouldn't be ganked on a daily basis. Freighters and JFs needed a buff not a beat down with the nerf bat.

I know that ore compression is going to be big and all that, and so you are probably expecting mineral hauling to become less frequent, but hauling minerals is only one of the many items we haul on a regular basis. Reducing our base cargo hold size is going to impact our ability to serve all of our customers.

Adding shield and armor HP to a freighter does not help them in any way shape or form. The resistances are ***t. The only reason a freighter has half a chance at surviving a gank is because of the massive hull HPs...which you are taking away.

All you are doing is making it far easier for the Hi-Sec gankers to gank freighters. Instead of 15 catalysts they will need only 10, and now instead of having a ship worth 1.5 bill, it'll be easily over 2 bill with T1 rigs, and probably closer to 4b for a T1 freighter with T2 capital rigs (because those are retardedly expensive).

Eve's whole mantra is "risk versus reward." Well, freighter pilots and JF pilots have a huge amount of risk, and not that great a reward. Where as ganking catalysts/talos/brutix have almost no risk, and a huge amount of reward. This whole thing seems backwards.
Abulurd Boniface
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2014-05-17 21:40:37 UTC
I like the idea of considering new fitting options for freighters, I'm not sure about the risk/reward equation at this point.

As an experienced miner I am thoroughly convinced about the volume aspect of cargo ships. Quantity is the name of the game. Every extra trip adds that much more risk to the endeavour, what is the freighter pilot getting out of that? A ship that is slower, and they are never really fast to begin with. They now have less tank, which is only adding more risk, one less volley required, that much less time to maybe get out of a tight situation.

This is all about the new way industry is intended to work, but not everybody plays that game, engages in that kind of content. Rigs are now not going to be an option, they will be a requirement, making the investment an even greater risk. T1 rigs will not be enough. T2s will be ludicrously expensive. And that's just to fly the boat halfway decent. No measure will be enough to withstand the onslaught of our pirate brothers who are exquisitely well-served with cheap and easily replaceable space frames to support their ganking efforts. Their risk/reward equation just put a really big smile on their faces.

So, I'm seriously asking: what is the freighter pilot getting out of all this for all the extra risk they are expected to assume?
Myst Valkyria
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#347 - 2014-05-17 21:40:52 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
What a disappointing set of changes.

I doubt I have anything to add that has been not said in the past pages, but I feel that reducing cargo so much that even a cargo rigged ship has less cargo and less tank and is slower and less agile than it was prepatch is a poor idea.


Truer words were never spoken.
Paranoid Loyd
#348 - 2014-05-17 21:41:48 UTC
I'm surprised to see so many from Red-Frog whining. You should be happy, these changes will discourage quite a bit of your competition.

Adapt and continue to dominate FFS. Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kelgh
Doomheim
#349 - 2014-05-17 21:43:42 UTC
funny how so little isk is needed to kill a ship that is that expensive even without rigss
Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
#350 - 2014-05-17 21:44:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It should be noted:

You can't fit 3 T2 cargo rigs on a freighter or JF.

The JF only has 2 slots.

The Freighter only has 400 calibration.

T2 cargo rigs have a calibration cost of 150. So that's 2 T2 rigs, and 1 T1 rig.


My bad.. Less cargo guys !

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T9Cq_v0MiiqJmQp1p1eKapPdQG3i1R6U_qP44zN-zqI/edit#gid=1334759259
Dave Stark
#351 - 2014-05-17 21:44:31 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
So, I'm seriously asking: what is the freighter pilot getting out of all this for all the extra risk they are expected to assume?


the ability to fit rigs.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2014-05-17 21:45:12 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many from Red-Frog whining. You should be happy, these changes will discourage quite a bit of your competition.

Adapt and continue to dominate FFS. Roll


That is quite obviously a post from ignorance, so let me tell you how it is. Red/Black/Blue Frog do not really have any competition to begin with. Their market is those that are not part of an alliance with a large logistical backbone, Goon Logistics, N3/PL Logistics, BNI Logistics etc, are not actual competition to them as those alliances are not the consumer base.
Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#353 - 2014-05-17 21:46:07 UTC
I have ONE question.......

it takes my Charon an agonizing 40 secs to align now, which I have gotten used to and accepted as a fact of life, and even made billions via hauling with the 40 seconds.........but why make it 114 seconds now? Ugh

Flugzeugführer
Alner Greyl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2014-05-17 21:47:43 UTC
Where is the choice?
I thought the goal of rigs is giving a choice for pilot.
I do logistic work more than 2 years. And every JF I move is full. Mostly we make 2-3 JF few times per week to deliver everything we need.
Why? Because we don't have everything in one region. And that's common stuff: fuel/isotopes. Why? Because we don't have it in one region and we need to take it from another region or trade hub. This is common situation for every logist in eve. If you don't have common and required items you need to trade you need to buy it somewhere.
What we have: hard work for logist. Every logist will tell you that this is terrible and boring job. But you need to do it.
What we have: expensive jumps (after patch). Ok. I have enough money to do it as usual and I know how to do this job. What about newbee logists? They need to have more money for fuel and change their jump schedule if they don't have it. Yes, they will try to use local markets but for example they live in amarr space with amarr ice and they need minmatar ice. So you need hub you need more money to take it.
What we have: rigs. Nice. Cool. I'll have choice. Dev blog. Oh sh*t I don't have choice. I need to install cargo rigs. Both newbee and me must find 1.5bil more to make JF cool and shiny.

What the point of rigs in this way? Giving me choice? No I don't have choice. I need to expand my cargo's volume. I'm not talking about agility because JF jumps betweem cyno not through the gate.

Goal was to give a choice. Result: expensive jumps and useless rigs for compensation of loosing volume.

Double nerf? Really? Logist job is so easy and funny that you need us to have more fun than we have now?

Give us real choice of fitting our jump freighters.


Kelgh
Doomheim
#355 - 2014-05-17 21:50:50 UTC
Alner Greyl wrote:
Where is the choice?
I thought the goal of rigs is giving a choice for pilot.
I do logistic work more than 2 years. And every JF I move is full. Mostly we make 2-3 JF few times per week to deliver everything we need.
Why? Because we don't have everything in one region. And that's common stuff: fuel/isotopes. Why? Because we don't have it in one region and we need to take it from another region or trade hub. This is common situation for every logist in eve. If you don't have common and required items you need to trade you need to buy it somewhere.
What we have: hard work for logist. Every logist will tell you that this is terrible and boring job. But you need to do it.
What we have: expensive jumps (after patch). Ok. I have enough money to do it as usual and I know how to do this job. What about newbee logists? They need to have more money for fuel and change their jump schedule if they don't have it. Yes, they will try to use local markets but for example they live in amarr space with amarr ice and they need minmatar ice. So you need hub you need more money to take it.
What we have: rigs. Nice. Cool. I'll have choice. Dev blog. Oh sh*t I don't have choice. I need to install cargo rigs. Both newbee and me must find 1.5bil more to make JF cool and shiny.

What the point of rigs in this way? Giving me choice? No I don't have choice. I need to expand my cargo's volume. I'm not talking about agility because JF jumps betweem cyno not through the gate.

Goal was to give a choice. Result: expensive jumps and useless rigs for compensation of loosing volume.

Double nerf? Really? Logist job is so easy and funny that you need us to have more fun than we have now?

Give us real choice of fitting our jump freighters.




that why they didn't say anything at fanfest
they wanted to look good
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#356 - 2014-05-17 21:53:49 UTC
One thing which should also be noted about T2 cargo rig prices.

Right now, in Jita, they're 725 million or so.

They jumped to that price some time between the 2nd and the 5th


https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/marketdisplay.php?typeid=31127&regionid=10000002

The actual build cost is around 400 million with an invention cost of around 2 million.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/31127/-4/0/-4/1

I wouldn't expect it to stay at that 725 price particularly long, once they start getting used.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Gekkoh
Circle of Steel Inc.
#357 - 2014-05-17 21:57:44 UTC
This is terrible.

You let us boost ONE aspect of freighters for a massive ISK cost, while the all the others get nerfed.

Have you actually tried hauling a lot of stuff around the Eve universe? It's boring as hell, and takes a lot of time as is because we have to keep our ISK values low to avoid losing everything.

When you call an expansion "the industry expansion", you might want to make sure that you're not actually making the "anti-industrialist expansion".

Terrible game design here.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#358 - 2014-05-17 21:58:24 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many from Red-Frog whining. You should be happy, these changes will discourage quite a bit of your competition.

Adapt and continue to dominate FFS. Roll


That is quite obviously a post from ignorance, so let me tell you how it is. Red/Black/Blue Frog do not really have any competition to begin with. Their market is those that are not part of an alliance with a large logistical backbone, Goon Logistics, N3/PL Logistics, BNI Logistics etc, are not actual competition to them as those alliances are not the consumer base.


u dnt think anyone else does courier contracts but frogs? That's ignorance. They may not be as good as u, but now u can be even better than they are than u were before, depending on whoever puts the extra effort in or not.

Alner Greyl wrote:
Where is the choice?


now u can choose between tank, speed and capacity. u also have the choice of rigging ur freighters for projectile damage if u want.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#359 - 2014-05-17 21:58:33 UTC
Wow so I get to pay for capitol t1 rigs just to get my cargo back to where it was......wow thanks a lot real advantage to a 900mil isk hull. And I can pay massive amount to have a 4% gain with t2 rigs? Umm you know if you were all going to do it like this why change it at all? I am not seeing the upside to any of this unless you produce capitol rigs. I am pretty sure what we wanted was a way to lose armor or hull hp for more cargo space so we had a trade off not just oh here this isn't a nerf cuz u can buy 300mil in rigs to get back to where u were.......What happened to when CCP had innovative solutions to things? And how is this adding any value to gameplay? The only thing being discussed is cargo rigs how much customization is that really? What about away to drop cargo space for more hp or speed? Make freighters special in some way currently you fly it as it is, with this addition you buy cargo rigs to regain pre nerf functionality. I'm sorry I love you guys at CCP but this just misses the mark and honestly makes very little sense.
Abulurd Boniface
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2014-05-17 21:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Abulurd Boniface
Dave Stark wrote:
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
So, I'm seriously asking: what is the freighter pilot getting out of all this for all the extra risk they are expected to assume?


the ability to fit rigs.


To me it seems like a really big burger full of fecal matter.

I was enthusiastic when CCP Fozzie announced rigs for freighters at Fanfest. The way these are going to be implemented, if that really is the final word, makes it seem like there's no real gain for the freighter pilot. I worry about that because driving a freighter is never the most enjoyable experience, this seems like feeding someone a meal with glass shards in it.

Rigs, as a reward, are totally underwhelming compared with the new risks and costs associated with flying a freighter.

In this implementation I would have to be asked -really- polite-like whether I wanted to move cargo for a third party and the collateral would be very expensive. I would be reluctant to accept these risks.