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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#301 - 2014-05-17 20:45:23 UTC
Ptrum wrote:
Why cant ccp just give freighters and JF low and mid slots and lower the cargo.

*sigh* Roll

Look at the limited amount of things you can do with rigs, and the limited bonuses they provide. Then look back at the OP to see what they had to do to accommodate those few options and small:ish boosts and still maintain a semblance of balance.

Now look at the massive amount of things you can do with low and midslots and the size of the bonuses they provide. Then imagine what they would have to do to the hulls to accommodate what you just asked them to unlock…
chef Shi
Perkone
Caldari State
#302 - 2014-05-17 20:45:28 UTC
First when i heard about that we where getting rigs for freigths i was so happy..

now i just wish we diden't get them this si a MAJOR nerf to freigthers over all.. giving us less tank, less agility and less cargo space..

when is there ever gonna be any love for the freigthers,?
Missss Deathwhisper
Burning Napalm
#303 - 2014-05-17 20:45:52 UTC
So CCP why would you not give Freighters and JFs a real fitting loadout. Give them low, mid, high and rig slots, so you can pick how your Freighter or JF are setup, Cargo, speed or tank setup. If you pick to go all cargo setup with expanded cargohold t2 and t1 cargo rigs, you should have the same amount of cargo as the Freighters or JFs got currently and if you pick to take t2 cargo rigs then should you get a bigger boost those 4% you are talking about. ofc if you pick to go tank or speed then should you not have the same amount of cargo as you have currently, so you either get to boost your cargo but sacrifice speed and tank or you pick tank and sacrifice cargo and speed.
Jubei Hangoon
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2014-05-17 20:46:32 UTC
I think the point of this nerf to JF is to motivate people to manufacture more in 0.0. Yes, the fixed and variable costs are going up, yes the risk is going up. The idea seems to be to motivate EVE players to manufacture more in 0.0.

But there is a fatal flaw to this strategy! Currently one enterprising and skilled person can create logistic lines and buy/sell orders to support a large team of PvP players in 0.0, but in order to create the kind of T2 production to support even a small alliance requires several highly motivated, resourced, and skilled industrialists who can hold with some stability a set of moons, miners, and blueprints and STILL need a logistical line to empire for datacores. In my experience this is prohibitive for all but the most expansive of alliances.

If CCP wants to break the tether to Empire, break it and be done with the current invention/moon mining system.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#305 - 2014-05-17 20:48:01 UTC
Does that mean that there are now job openings for miners and industrialists in null-sec?

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#306 - 2014-05-17 20:48:32 UTC
What is the problem with been able to move Packaged Capital ships in empire in T2 rigged Freighters?
Give them a flag so you cannot unpackage them (the caps) in empire stations and bam new high value targets in empire when people are trying to move a packaged JF in a normal Freighter so it can be sold in jita or something. I see nothing wrong with this if there’s no way to unpackage them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#307 - 2014-05-17 20:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
chef Shi wrote:
when is there ever gonna be any love for the freigthers,?

When there's need for it.

Right now, there really isn't any, but people kept chanting for the ability to choose even though it was blatantly obvious that fitting choice would come at a huge cost.

Missss Deathwhisper wrote:
So CCP why would you not give Freighters and JFs a real fitting loadout
Because it would make them awful, and look how well the very small nerf required to give them rigs is received.

Tappits wrote:
What is the problem with been able to move Packaged Capital ships in empire in T2 rigged Freighters?
Give them a flag
…because if your solution cascades into having to solve more and more problems the more you're trying to fix, what you're doing isn't a solution but an endless source of complication.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#308 - 2014-05-17 20:49:36 UTC
Tappits wrote:
What is the problem with been able to move Packaged Capital ships in empire in T2 rigged Freighters?
Give them a flag so you cannot unpackage them (the caps) in empire stations and bam new high value targets in empire when people are trying to move a packaged JF in a normal Freighter so it can be sold in jita or something. I see nothing wrong with this if there’s no way to unpackage them.


This is a terrible idea.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#309 - 2014-05-17 20:51:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
This is exactly why I have been saying for the 7 posts I made before that one, that these changes are bad to begin with and CCP should leave JF and freighters the way they are.

Ok. Fair enough. It's hard to keep track of who says what. Lol

And anyway, the changes they've done would not be sufficient to make up for a lowslot since you can do a whole lot more with one than you can with three rig slots, so my main point stands: no, it would not be an acceptable trade.



BTW as a t2 ship, JF will only get 2 rigs. That is why this change is so brutal of a nurf for JF.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#310 - 2014-05-17 20:51:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tappits wrote:
What is the problem with been able to move Packaged Capital ships in empire in T2 rigged Freighters?
Give them a flag so you cannot unpackage them (the caps) in empire stations and bam new high value targets in empire when people are trying to move a packaged JF in a normal Freighter so it can be sold in jita or something. I see nothing wrong with this if there’s no way to unpackage them.


This is a terrible idea.


Were is the constructive criticism? your a terrible idea.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#311 - 2014-05-17 20:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Frighters and JF were better off before these changes. Keep your rigs so we can keep our freighters and JFs.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#312 - 2014-05-17 20:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
The whole drama is based on bad CCP communication. They should stand out and say "we don't like everything built in Sobaseki, sold in Jita and moved to everywhere else. We want you to build stuff locally. Hauling from Jita is meant to be an auxiliary source of items. Because of this, we nerf Freighters and JFs to the ground, like we did with AFK-sentry fleets and AoE Doomsdays"

Again: I like this change and I believe it will revitalize industry in nullsec, which is very much needed.

As usual you're spouting nonsense. "Nerfing JFs and freighters into the ground" as you're saying would be the nerfs, without the rigs to allow the choice of what you want back. And even if they did do that, it in and of itself wouldn't revitalize nullsec industry; that's all going to be the Crius changes, with zero contribution from the stuff in this thread. You're also ignoring the fact that the Crius design assumes null industry will continue to be based on imported minerals (which is why they made the changes to compressed ore) and that regional ice and moon products are a thing that must be imported and exported as well, making some kind of heavy lift transport capacity a requirement.

May I suggest you return to your blog where you can hide behind comments approval when someone points out the holes in your reasoning?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#313 - 2014-05-17 20:54:01 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Were is the constructive criticism? your a terrible idea.
What problem are you trying to solve by creating a new problem that needs to be solved, and how is solving the first worth the headache you just created?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#314 - 2014-05-17 20:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Batolemaeus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
[

Its to stop us shipping capitals into jita.


Increasing repackaged values of capital ships and sov upgrade mods is one sql query away.


so why not just allow freighters to carry 20mil m3 and make repackaged capitals 21mil m3?

Because theres a point where logistics becomes too easy and transforms competition from effort and risk taking to simply having a skillbook trained or not. With across the board increases to capacity with no trade offs, importing items becomes easier, safer and faster, and that means it becomes cheaper. Prices level across the galaxy which means the rewards are less for anyone who does any work.

its a nerf to ppl who set up shop in a certain location to build and sell certain items.
its a nerf to ppl who pay attention and use escorts when they haul.
its a nerf to inter-regional traders.

the real beneficiaries of making all this easier to do is ppl who dnt really pay attention to where they set up shop, cant be bothered to check regional prices and afk haul.

you want things to be harder, because u want to be rewarded for ur efforts and u want ur competition to lose out for being lazy or dying in a fire because hes bad at space ships.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#315 - 2014-05-17 20:58:37 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
It doesn't. I also believe that is the point; 0.0 was never meant to be homogeneous with no incentive to take and own other regions. OTEC only worked because various entities across the map worked together. If you want the ability to obtain and control certain resources without needing to blue/NIP most of the map, then it will need to be regional.


And... that means... that you will always have to import... because someone else controls the production materials... If that importing is more difficult or has a high barrier to entry (which is what the fuel and freighter changes create) then you are NOT going to be producing in null- you're going to be doing so near your source for the materials...


Quote:
Yup.
This is a valid complaint. The difference in our opinions is that I am of the belief we are in the growing-pains stage of change (andd embracing it) and you're yelling down the attempt to affect any change at all.
You can't just make importing completely non-viable overnight, you need to slowly make changes, which then make organisations do a top-down evaluation and conclude "the time has come for us to seriously look at meeting our material needs locally".


Batolemaeus said it eloquently enough already:
Quote:
Don't you think enabling 0.0 and especially deep 0.0 ability to produce locally should come before nerfing importing?

I try to have a realistic outlook on things, and with the glacial speed of CCP, I'd prefer they fix A before they nerf B which A depends on.

Change away as much as you want, but make sure players actually have a way to adapt. There's no way not to import currently, so fix that, then hurt importing if it hasn't already diminished by itself.



Quote:
A lot more changes need to happen between here and there, but christ, don't be that guy wailing against all change, and definitely don't be that guy if you're only doing it because you don't personally think the outcome benefits you.


You seem to think continuing to attack me because you're butthurt about something I said on twitter is at all a good argument. I've not mentioned benefits or injuries to myself at any point, yet you've spent all but a small portion of this last post attacking me or my affiliation rather than having anything to say.

They have their incentives and approach to their goal set up backwards, which is what I've said from the very first post. That's far different from blindly hating it because it doesn't serve me.
Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
#316 - 2014-05-17 20:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Dura
Buzz Dura wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/b4obsew.png


for those who missed some figures...
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#317 - 2014-05-17 20:59:35 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Frighters and JF were better off before these changes. Keep our rigs so we can keep our freighters and JFs.

You don't understand. The rigs are the boost we get on top of these nerfs. Without rigs, you'd only have the nerf left.

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New Mining Mechanics
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#318 - 2014-05-17 20:59:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
See… there was a reason why I was against rigs on freighters from the very start… Straight

T2 capital rigs and a significant reduction in survivability requried and/or speed to get them back to where they were. Gee thanks.


T1 rigs are easily enough to bring normal freighters above their current cargo values.


They do, but from my understanding they're losing out in the other areas, (Speed, HP for JF & HP for freighters).

Personally this won't affect my corp much but I can see how this can be a major PITA for organized groups with specific cargo restrictions like alliance logistics, red frog etc.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#319 - 2014-05-17 21:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
mynnna wrote:
also ignoring the fact that the Crius design assumes null industry will continue to be based on imported minerals (which is why they made the changes to compressed ore) and that regional ice and moon products are a thing that must be imported and exported as well, making some kind of heavy lift transport capacity a requirement.

So basically they're making logistics more of a dull tedious pita of a chore for ....what exactly....good gameplay?

If everything still relies on imports, how are these changes possibly a good idea? Unless more tedium is a good thing? Although, knowing CCP...
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#320 - 2014-05-17 21:01:55 UTC
HEy U CCP Devs are you ****ing Crazy?

T2 capital rigs to be able to do what i was doing earlier in 1 or 2 aspects of my JF and Freighter?

IMO
t1 rigs = old performance
t2 better performance

and when u are gona change that silly +5 max velosity bonus on freighters??