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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2014-05-13 04:58:06 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:


Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again


Sorry corpie - I disagree with you here. Nothing keeps these ships from being flown. They just have to sit 30k from the beacon.

If every PVPer in FW fit a cloaky-hunter to catch cloaky-runner ships, the runners would still outnumber us by a large margin. If I come in on a farmer, he cant cloak and now has to run instead of just waiting for me to leave the system. Good riddance to them.

These changes are small, and incremental perhaps, but they are going to have an effect and I am glad for them. Really hope for some bigger ships in the larges now...


I see your quote and post another that shows you haven't read the full thread. I'm not talking about going after <2mil mil farmer fits. That is not exciting nor is it relevant gameplay. I'm talking about actually fighting players who are wanting to do the exact same thing as me: PvP against people who want to fight back.

Yun Kuai wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:


3) Why do you feel that it is not okay to ban a single module that is designed purely to allow people to run but feel comfortable in all but eliminating over 10 ships who use covert op cloaks from use inside of plexes except now in very niche cases?

Thank you for the responses!

Fit prop mod, be closer than 30km almost instantly, profit? Most of those ships don't need to be inside 30, most people won't sit at 0 on the beacon so you can get closer than 30 sometimes and you can move once you decloak.



First let me clear up what I'm talking about here. I'm not just talking about hunting the farmers. You're right most of those guys will sit right on the edge which means you can catch them. I'm talking about actually engaging in faction warfare with real PVP ships with the intent of killing other PVP ships.

The pilgrim....
I use it to go out solo hunting. There are plenty of 2-3 man destroyer gangs running around in thrashers and cats which are perfect for my pilgrim to fight. Those destroyers sit at 0km on the warp-in. My pilgrim is also 10mn AB fit as well so I will now have to AB over 30km at a blazing 550m/s and hope they either a) stick around to fight or b) we role play a scene from a comedy movie where the guy sneaking up is completely obvious and tells the guys he is sneaking up on to pretend he's not there so they finish the scene. While option b would be fun I don't think it's going to happen very often.

Which brings me to my point I was trying to make. Eliminating cloaks within 30km of the capture point takes out cloaky ships from plex fights in 99% of all cases except for those very few niche cases, like falcon at 90km. But falcon at 90km means you had him on d-scan while he was burning 30+ Km off the warp in before he could cloak up and finish slow boating the rest of the distance.

So my question still stands, why is not banning a module that is designed to allow people to run away allowed inside of plexes supported when not allowing the use of specialty ships the super majority of the time also supported? I would much rather see a module that goes counter intuitive to faction warfare limited vs expensive ships that are being put at real risk being banned.



You can keep your farmer hunting and the sadistic pleasure you get from doing it to yourself. You can still sneak into a plex beforehand and sit cloaked waiting for the farmer to move right to the edge so you can scram him and engage in your "no risk" pvp. As I mentioned above, I'm talking about real engagements and not the 1% cases.

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Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2014-05-13 05:14:06 UTC
Had posted this earlier in another thread before Fozzie released the news, but I still feel it's relevant to the discussion at hand. The discussion that FW players should be allowed to do everything from day 1 is being addressed but not nearly enough.
Yun Kuai wrote:


The easiest fix is one that is usually over looked.

FW was redesigned to be open for the entire masses and for any new player to come and try it out for themselves. We all know the expression, you can't have your cake and eat it too. FW needs to keep that in mind. Theme parks allow people of all ages into their parks but they limit rides based on size. It gives something for younger children to look forward too in the future and gives them a reason to keep coming back to the theme park every year. As they get older, get bigger, stronger, etc they are allowed more options to participate in.

With that being said, CCP's biggest mistake was not allowing "new" players (i.e. alts with 900k sp) into FW, it was allowing those same players to be able to accomplish all aspects of FW (minus missions but those are so horribly broken that's for another topic) that a player like myself who has been playing for almost 6 years straight is able to do. I have no problem with 900k sp new players being able to run novices which allow them to stay afloat financially more than sufficiently. Allowing those same 900k sp players to easily run the small plexes is debatable, which means they should be challenging or require a friend. Allowing those 900k sp players to run the medium plexes is down right unacceptable and access to large plexes is just pure stupidity. Allowing those same 900k sp players to do all of the above in a meta fit t1 frig that has stabs and a cloak was just ignorance and a slap in the face to players who actually want to partake in the real FW experience.

Does denying them the ability to run a medium ruin their fun? Of course not, those people who are actually doing FW will team up with others in their militia to go around running mediums and larges. It gives them a sense of accomplishment to finish their first medium as a group and then later as a solo pilot. And that sense of accomplishment is a motivator to keep people undocking and interested in FW. Every other part of the game has this same logic. You work your way up to the top by getting the best ship for the job, working towards access to the lvl 4/5 missions, skills to complete a manufacturing job, etc. The only difference here is that the "end game" in FW is so different compared to other aspects of EvE. Once you can run large plexes solo, you could argue that you have the ability to recoup your losses which means you can focus on what FW was/should be about: the constant war against your enemies factions (PvP).


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Harreeb Alls
God of Terrorr
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#243 - 2014-05-13 07:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Harreeb Alls
I feel some MAJOR things have been overlooked and there are some great opportunities to make massive quality of life improvements for FW corps and FW space.

The amount of system control awarded should reflect the size of a plex. Encourage larger fleets and engagements by making a large worth 10x more system control than a small. Or each size worth 2x more than the next one down. As it stands now, there is simply no way to deal with mulitboxing/ semi-afk plex farming (which is mostly done in novices) Outside of the populated home systems of FW corps, this is what decides warzone control, they are all stabbed, and no pvp will come from it. They will just afk, cloaked at safe, until pvp'rs leave the system. It's broken, and there is no good answer to it. To defend a system you have to trade your time equally with their plexing.

Give the NPC's MORE DAMAGE and TANK in the larger plexs, and make them spawn in groups of 4 or 5 ships. Make it very, very difficult for t2 frigs to farm these! I want them to do more damage so when people have stabs fitted they get punished for that long lock time. You could give some NPC's warp disrupters, or at least add some frigates loaded with EWAR. This will create much more pvp and make it possible to catch and punish plex farmers. They have it way to easy.

I'd also like to see the LP from novices and smalls reduced if there is only 1 ship in them, and increased when you are plexing in groups. Promote some teamwork! Also the LP from PVP needs to be increased, double or even tripled.

I'd also like to see customs office and pos ownership restricted to the faction in control of the system. There are plenty of non-fw systems for non-FW groups. This will add a LOT more value to taking systems, teamwork and co-operation among FW corps. This will open a lot of much needed corp/alliance income for FW groups for ship replacement programs, logistics, ect. FW should be a place for pvp corps to grow and be nurtured.

Improve the value of living in FW space for everyone. RISK vs REWARD, FW space is without question the most dangerous space in New Eden, it's asteroid belts should have the juiciest rocks, it should spawn some of the highest paying anomalies, complexes, ghost sites, and relic/data sites. Increase the spawn rate of clone soldiers and faction rats.

Then you'll see a real warzone XD
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
#244 - 2014-05-13 11:17:07 UTC
I do not know whether to tell it in this thread before, but ... the arrival point of the lighthouse will need to postpone the point of capture, in the case of expansion declock area that is needed. As well (if it is allowed DEV instruments) do delay for decklok, someone who just passed inside the capture point. This removes clock farmers and save opportunities clock huners.Pirate
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#245 - 2014-05-13 11:45:48 UTC
Harreeb Alls wrote:
I feel some MAJOR things have been overlooked and there are some great opportunities to make massive quality of life improvements for FW corps and FW space.

The amount of system control awarded should reflect the size of a plex. Encourage larger fleets and engagements by making a large worth 10x more system control than a small. Or each size worth 2x more than the next one down. As it stands now, there is simply no way to deal with mulitboxing/ semi-afk plex farming (which is mostly done in novices) Outside of the populated home systems of FW corps, this is what decides warzone control, they are all stabbed, and no pvp will come from it. They will just afk, cloaked at safe, until pvp'rs leave the system. It's broken, and there is no good answer to it. To defend a system you have to trade your time equally with their plexing.

Give the NPC's MORE DAMAGE and TANK in the larger plexs, and make them spawn in groups of 4 or 5 ships. Make it very, very difficult for t2 frigs to farm these! I want them to do more damage so when people have stabs fitted they get punished for that long lock time. You could give some NPC's warp disrupters, or at least add some frigates loaded with EWAR. This will create much more pvp and make it possible to catch and punish plex farmers. They have it way to easy.

I'd also like to see the LP from novices and smalls reduced if there is only 1 ship in them, and increased when you are plexing in groups. Promote some teamwork! Also the LP from PVP needs to be increased, double or even tripled.

I'd also like to see customs office and pos ownership restricted to the faction in control of the system. There are plenty of non-fw systems for non-FW groups. This will add a LOT more value to taking systems, teamwork and co-operation among FW corps. This will open a lot of much needed corp/alliance income for FW groups for ship replacement programs, logistics, ect. FW should be a place for pvp corps to grow and be nurtured.

Improve the value of living in FW space for everyone. RISK vs REWARD, FW space is without question the most dangerous space in New Eden, it's asteroid belts should have the juiciest rocks, it should spawn some of the highest paying anomalies, complexes, ghost sites, and relic/data sites. Increase the spawn rate of clone soldiers and faction rats.

Then you'll see a real warzone XD

I believe my esteemed colleague Bad Messenger said it best when he said, "No".

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Darkie Katelo
Offerings of Blood
#246 - 2014-05-13 12:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkie Katelo
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I just don't feel anything that's accessible to new players can be made inaccessible to alts, and am ok with that. At least these changes appear to increase the time / isk / attention investment for offensive plexing, which is a step in the right direction.

"Accessible to new players" does not mean "a 1-day old character can make as much ISK/hr as a years-old missioner can". Sure, that's very accessible to new players, but it's too much. Currently a "new player" in the right faction makes 25,000 LP out of a 10 minute novice plex. That makes for 5 faction frigates, minus their UUA chip prices, which comes out to about 30-40 mil ISK.
If you do 4 of these in an hour, leaving out 20 minutes for being chased around or warping to new plexes, that is 120-160 mil ISK per hour.

.


1. if you make 40 mil isk from 25 000 lp, my milion lp alt would like a word with you. the actual pay for 25.000 lp is way less, if you`re lucky you get 20 mil for 25 000 lp, so stop your jibberish.
2. if you wanna do pvp, you need isk, thats why, all of the pvp`ers we have alts, FW alts, get free isk printing true, but the sum is way overrated.
3. breaking game mechanics, making dungeons with special rules, no cloacking etc is kinda silly, and not working as intended, you are taking away of atvantages of cloacky, pilgrims and curses were highly popular in Amarr/Min zone.
Bottom line: very bad idea of non-cloacking zone. The increase in number of NPC is a good ideea, non cloacking and stabs not.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2014-05-13 13:18:09 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Some good stuff

I agree, banning cloaks within 30Km is an ill thought out knee jerk reaction to farmer jealousy without considering the wider consequencies.

Farmers will adapt, they always adapt and with this change, it doesn't even take a lot of ingenuity to think of options available to them.
. They will sit at 29Km and just burn out a km or two and cloak when they sight someone on short scan
. They will equip warp core stabs, sit more than 15kms from the warp in and just warp out when someone comes in.
. They will sit in a 1M Isk ship and if they get caught, they will just write it off and get another.

The whiners going on about the problems of farmers in cloaky, stabbed ship, don't solo and don't hunt in the plexes. STFU ruining our game with your stupid suggestions about an aspect of the game you don't engage in. CCP show some sense and roll back this change.

I've killed a dozen stabbed cloaky farmers in the last few weeks with an Asteros. While you have to be decloaked on the gate, you can recloak before you land with a good chance you won't land within 2Kms of the beacon. Even if they see you on short scan they don't know if you came in or whether you warped out again. Five minutes tops is all you have to wait. Then burn up to them, bump decloak, double scram, dead.

Now I can't get into a plex in my Astero or any other cloaky ship once the farmer is already there. Sure I get in before he arrives and then what? Sit there for six hours on the off chance a farmer will come along? Wonderful. Even then, I can't get close enough to him. I need to decloak at range and burn in to under 9Km to have a chance unless I fit faction scrams and have all the boosts.

This isn't going to damage farming, this is going to make it safer for them. We have the tools for the job, let us use them.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#248 - 2014-05-13 13:52:26 UTC
@ Major Trant:

You are forgetting that NPC will spawn every 1-3 minutes in all that time they CAN NOT cloak even if they burn out of the 30km radius, so there is a BIG chance you can catch them while they are shooting one of the npc spawns that has improved tank.


This is a good change. CCP has thought well about it.

Wait and see before you complain.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#249 - 2014-05-13 14:02:08 UTC
Darkie Katelo wrote:
1. if you make 40 mil isk from 25 000 lp, my milion lp alt would like a word with you. the actual pay for 25.000 lp is way less, if you`re lucky you get 20 mil for 25 000 lp, so stop your jibberish.
2. if you wanna do pvp, you need isk, thats why, all of the pvp`ers we have alts, FW alts, get free isk printing true, but the sum is way overrated.
3. breaking game mechanics, making dungeons with special rules, no cloacking etc is kinda silly, and not working as intended, you are taking away of atvantages of cloacky, pilgrims and curses were highly popular in Amarr/Min zone.
Bottom line: very bad idea of non-cloacking zone. The increase in number of NPC is a good ideea, non cloacking and stabs not.

1. If you're in Gallente militia, you can easily get 1500isk/LP selling to buy orders in Jita. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.
2. The complaints for FW income aren't based on plexing at Tier 2, they're based on running plexes and missions at Tier 4-5. At Tier 4, in Minmatar militia, you can easily hit 500-600k LP/hour running broken L4 missions in a stealth bomber. THAT is what is broken, not plexing alts in backwater systems at Tier 1-2.
3. The cloaking change is intend to make people actually have to warp out, costing them time and effort and giving folks a chance to catch them. Yes, it means that your cloaky hunting tactics are more difficult, and if you read the OP and the update from Fozzie you'd know that they're aware of this.

People just need to calm the hell down for a while. Yes, cloaky hunting gets nerfed, and yes that will make it harder to catch stabbed farmers. You will also see fewer stabbed farmers to begin with, because of the NPC changes. In other words, you shouldn't HAVE to run around in an Astero to kill them, because they won't be nearly as big of a problem anymore.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#250 - 2014-05-13 14:55:36 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
How did I creeate a link to this thread?

A couple people in game want to read it, but I can't figure out how to link it.


Look at the top "breadcrumbs" path (Home >> Eve Forums >> ...). The last link there is a link to the thread (the OP). To link an individual post, right click on the post number (#123) and copy the link from there.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#251 - 2014-05-13 15:02:45 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:

Ok, I'm beginning to think I understand FW a little bit more.

How about these alterations...

To actually GET loyalty points, you have to first QUALIFY for the points by staying detectable within the capture radius of a site your faction controls.

After qualifying for the loyalty points, you must then go to the 'button' in the center of that site and 'collect' the points (which will take a minimum of 2 minutes)

if your faction loses control of the site, you leave the capture range of the site, or you become otherwise undetectable (by cloaking or being destroyed), you lose whatever loyalty points you have 'qualified' for, but had not collected.

Would this idea be workable in some way? What am I saying? You guys are either going to flame it or ignore it.

That might work, but it's a convoluted system that is probably hell to implement. Yesterday I made a facetious thread about adding "reinforcement timers" to FW complexes, and basing them around shooting a small structure instead. I was joking and trying to propose the most awful possible thing at the time, but on second thought it might be an idea so bad it's good.

Instead of orbiting a button, you shoot a structure that takes a minute or two to go down to a ship of appropriate plex size. Then, it gets reinforced for 5-10 minutes, during which you can go do whatever else you want, or just wait there. At the end of the timer, there's a 1-2 minute window during which you can come back and destroy it before it regenerates enough to get reinforced again. Reinforcement timers everywhere else in Eve come with a display visible in local, so this could advertise the site to both attackers and defenders as a contested location that will have someone there in the next 5-10 minutes, which promotes PvP.

On the plus side it also eliminates defensive plexing (AKA bot plexing), and gets rid of the contrived "fight this weird FW NPC" mechanic. I never thought I'd be encouraging the expansion of structure grinding, but with small structures it may well work, as demonstrated with the new anchorables.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#252 - 2014-05-13 15:25:54 UTC
Sometimes it's best to look at the most simple solution before changing module mechanics or other drastic steps...

As has been previously mentioned, wouldn't timer resets after warp off or moving out of extended range of the beacon solve all the farming problems?

If farmers realize that they need to defend the plex or lose all the LP they will quickly learn they either need to pvp fit, hope they find a quiet system, or decide farming isn't a viable income strategy.

These bandaid fixes that are being introduced are not going to change the mindset of farmers. They are simply forcing farmers to adapt to a new ruleset.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#253 - 2014-05-13 15:39:50 UTC
Caval Marten wrote:
Sometimes it's best to look at the most simple solution before changing module mechanics or other drastic steps...

As has been previously mentioned, wouldn't timer resets after warp off or moving out of extended range of the beacon solve all the farming problems?

If farmers realize that they need to defend the plex or lose all the LP they will quickly learn they either need to pvp fit, hope they find a quiet system, or decide farming isn't a viable income strategy.

These bandaid fixes that are being introduced are not going to change the mindset of farmers. They are simply forcing farmers to adapt to a new ruleset.

Timer resets would massively impact actual PvP and assaults on defended systems. You can't balance plexing mechanics for farmers alone - the impact it has on assaulting defended systems and flipping systems always needs to take priority over some schmuck who wants to avoid PvP and earn LP.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Starlite Kishunuba
Perkone
Caldari State
#254 - 2014-05-13 16:11:08 UTC
Honestly I'm a little pissed at the cloaking change. Not all of us use cloaks to farm
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#255 - 2014-05-13 16:11:09 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Caval Marten wrote:
Sometimes it's best to look at the most simple solution before changing module mechanics or other drastic steps...

As has been previously mentioned, wouldn't timer resets after warp off or moving out of extended range of the beacon solve all the farming problems?

If farmers realize that they need to defend the plex or lose all the LP they will quickly learn they either need to pvp fit, hope they find a quiet system, or decide farming isn't a viable income strategy.

These bandaid fixes that are being introduced are not going to change the mindset of farmers. They are simply forcing farmers to adapt to a new ruleset.

Timer resets would massively impact actual PvP and assaults on defended systems. You can't balance plexing mechanics for farmers alone - the impact it has on assaulting defended systems and flipping systems always needs to take priority over some ******* who wants to avoid PvP and earn LP.


I don't see an adverse effect on pvp.

Even in a coordinated effort to capture a system like Amarr did a while back with Ourzad.. if you can't hold the field in a plex you lose all progress. It's cutthroat but in the end it comes down to pvp. The invading gang still needs to run down the defending timer and they will be in the same boat should the capturing fleet that fled comes back.

I can only see timer resets encouraging more pvp and reducing farming.
Starlite Kishunuba
Perkone
Caldari State
#256 - 2014-05-13 16:14:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Caval Marten wrote:
Sometimes it's best to look at the most simple solution before changing module mechanics or other drastic steps...

As has been previously mentioned, wouldn't timer resets after warp off or moving out of extended range of the beacon solve all the farming problems?

If farmers realize that they need to defend the plex or lose all the LP they will quickly learn they either need to pvp fit, hope they find a quiet system, or decide farming isn't a viable income strategy.

These bandaid fixes that are being introduced are not going to change the mindset of farmers. They are simply forcing farmers to adapt to a new ruleset.

Timer resets would massively impact actual PvP and assaults on defended systems. You can't balance plexing mechanics for farmers alone - the impact it has on assaulting defended systems and flipping systems always needs to take priority over some ******* who wants to avoid PvP and earn LP.


Yea, it would be impactful, that's the point. Perhaps it could be accompanied by a shorter timer.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#257 - 2014-05-13 16:40:57 UTC
As a guy who got ganked by a Merlin last night because two Asteros decloaked as I warped in.... I FULLY SUPPORT THESE CHANGES! Big smile (not really, but willing to see what the effect is. Change is good even if to break up the same old routine)
Aiphona
Alien Mindbenders
#258 - 2014-05-13 18:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiphona
Starlite Kishunuba wrote:
Honestly I'm a little pissed at the cloaking change. Not all of us use cloaks to farm



Well if you dont use a cloak to farm, then there is nothing lost for you!


I love the changes, they are great and are well balanced.

People dont realize how much effect the extra tank and the npc respawning will have on farmers.
People dont realize how stabs wont be viable because the farmers need the low-slots for damage mods to be able to kill the NPC.
And NPC will respawn all the time making cloaking impossible because they are targeted by the npc.....
Wait and see......
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#259 - 2014-05-13 20:23:16 UTC
Eh, let's see how it goes. I honestly think these changes need timer rollbacks layered on top to function as intended. But let's see. The DPS figures for medium and large are alright but I'd prefer novice and small were bumped up just a little.

I guess we'll be seeing a lot more farming dessies.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Granios
Wild Tigers Unleashed
#260 - 2014-05-14 01:50:26 UTC
Timer restet is wrong why becouse when 2 people warp to you or ship counter you dont fight them just run. Why people are so buthurted about farmers stabs and cloak ? if there will be no stabs cloak in plexes there will be no farmers and systems will be deserted if you want get rid of farmers nerf lp you get by 50% there will be no farmers for sure.