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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#221 - 2014-05-12 19:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Once again, we aren't under any illusions that these changes will "end" farming and that was never a goal.


So FW complexes are a PvE activity and all the talk about easily accessible solo/smallgang PvP was bluff and blunder. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

Nobody goes out to PvP and PvE at the same time. You either fit for evasion and look to farm, or fit for PvP and farming bores you to tears. So long as evasion is still a route to success, FW complexes will remain a joke for satisfying PvP.

To clarify. Why does someone go into a plex? One of two reasons: the first is for the LP of capturing it, and the second is for PvP.

If you enter a plex with the objective of making LP:

  • You will not enter a plex with someone else in there.
  • You will be fit for either PvE fighting (is this what Fozzie calls "for DPS"?) or for maximum evasion while still managing to run the plex.
  • This may include a cloak or stabs. Especially so if you are doing extremely-bottable defensive plexing where no offensive modules are required.
  • You kill the rat then sit as far away from the plex warp-in as possible.
  • You watch D-scan. If someone comes in, you warp away. (or exit capture range and cloak). Even if the attacker is cloaky, it doesn't matter, because they are forced to decloak. Risk: zero. Loss from running away: the time you spent cloaked.
  • The only way to lose more is if the attacker goes on to try to capture your plex, wasting his time. This does not happen. If someone is looking for PvP, they are not looking to orbit a button.
  • Once you're alone in the plex again, you continue capturing it. Reward: $$$.


If you enter a plex with the objective of PvPing, there are two situations: You want to be the attacker, or the defender. The attacker:

  • Sees something on d-scan inside a plex that he believes he has some chance of beating (the "chance" depends on the attacker's risk-adversity).
  • Has the advantage due to "dictating" whether an engagement happens or not, based on his opinion on the outcome.
  • If the plex's resident is a farmer who behaves like in the segment above, the attacker will not stay and counter-farm. Ticking a timer down for 15 minutes is not a satisfying form of player conflict. The farmer/bot automatically wins.


The defender:

  • Sees the attacker coming and can prepare so far as range management and other situational awareness.
  • Knows the attacker is confident about the possibility of a kill. This is why very few people defend plexes without using elaborate traps. Those traps do not result in PvP more engaging than "mindless".


CCP Fozzie seems under the illusion that people who farm are willing to play the role of defender. They are not. Why fight, when it's more profitable to just run to another site, then return and finish your old one after the cockblocked attacker leaves, disappointed he was chasing the mirage of a good fight?

Alternatively, the illusion is that the PvP defender cares about LP income. He does not. He cares about easy "trap" kills using either an expensive ship, alts/friends in possibly cloaked ships, or both. Neither of these is an efficient way to make income.

So where does that leave us?

  • Farmers farm as before, but with a little more difficulty (stronger rats).
  • Trappers in plexes go nowhere.
  • Roaming "attacking" PvPers are still left without the promised good solo/small gang PvP, by chasing after either farmers, or traps.
  • Plexes remain useless for good PvP.
  • ~~Insert question about whether devs play what they're balancing here~~


In fact, plexes are so useless for PvP that I've had a better time solo harassing carebears in nullsec, then trying to engage the response gangs, than trying to find good fights in FW. Since there seems to be little initiative to curb FW plexing as a PvE mechanic, I may quit recommending FW for PvP, since that is obviously misguided advice. I am very disappointed in CCP's handling of FW.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#222 - 2014-05-12 19:31:11 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Part of their intent is to ensure that it's accessible for newer players.

Newer players like my alts backed by years of knowledge of the mechanics around not being caught and making maximum ISK?

Or newer players like ones that don't know how to d-scan or fit 4 guns to a Thrasher and call it a day, who die as soon as an older FW resident comes in?

Who does this "accessibility" really benefit? Remember Malcanis's Law.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#223 - 2014-05-12 19:33:09 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Who does this "accessibility" really benefit? Remember Malcanis's Law.


CCP. Gotta keep PLEXing those farming bots.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-05-12 19:36:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Who does this "accessibility" really benefit? Remember Malcanis's Law.

Oh, I remember. I just don't feel anything that's accessible to new players can be made inaccessible to alts, and am ok with that. At least these changes appear to increase the time / isk / attention investment for offensive plexing, which is a step in the right direction.

The bigger issue in LP income terms is FW missions, which won't be balanced until the content authoring tools get done. When that will be I don't know, but I expect they'll be adjusted shortly thereafter.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#225 - 2014-05-12 19:52:29 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
I just don't feel anything that's accessible to new players can be made inaccessible to alts, and am ok with that. At least these changes appear to increase the time / isk / attention investment for offensive plexing, which is a step in the right direction.

"Accessible to new players" does not mean "a 1-day old character can make as much ISK/hr as a years-old missioner can". Sure, that's very accessible to new players, but it's too much. Currently a "new player" in the right faction makes 25,000 LP out of a 10 minute novice plex. That makes for 5 faction frigates, minus their UUA chip prices, which comes out to about 30-40 mil ISK.
If you do 4 of these in an hour, leaving out 20 minutes for being chased around or warping to new plexes, that is 120-160 mil ISK per hour.

There is absolutely no justification for this obscene amount of income being available to a no-skills character. Not only is there no other option available that comes even close to this income for anything but high-SP characters, but someone who can only fly T1 frigates with T1 modules has no use for this sort of income. The content will then be flooded with people who do have use for this high income for this low effort -- every bittervet, his mother, and her cousin's pet rabbit. Welcome to the genesis of a FW farmland.

Reduce FW income significantly (by at least half), to keep it a newbie-friendly PvE activity while slapping every risk-adverse veteran in the face (they could use it). Alternatively, make defending a plex be required to capture it, or otherwise punish running away by more than wasting you an equal amount of time that the plex invader wastes, to push more conflict, risk for reward, and HTFU.

The current mechanic is newbie-friendly, sure. It is also alt-friendly to the point that the alts outnumber the newbies at least 10 to 1 (personal experience approximation, take with a grain of salt). That's not the kind of newbie-friendliness Eve needs.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#226 - 2014-05-12 19:53:20 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Looking forward to see how these changes will alter the farming landscape.

they won't alter anything. all they do is to make plexing more annoying for everybody involved. Doesn't matter if you pvp or farm.

Yup. Which will change the landscape, since it changes the level of attention you need to pay to plexing, and the hurdles involved in actually killing the NPCs.

It's amazing that people think it won't have any impact at all on FW as a whole.

June can't come fast enough.

its like treating the flu by closing your nose so you stop sneezing. Patching symptoms doesn't make a better game.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Exantcha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2014-05-12 19:54:34 UTC
So excited hope it's not to snug fitting for pvpvpe
Douglas Nolm
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2014-05-12 20:15:19 UTC
I agree with Bienator II, I know its a few pages back now, but his post deserves more support! Timer rollback would indeed solve many of the current issues, and even has real and/or rp (delete as you prefer) basis. YOU CANNOT HOLD WHAT YOU CAPTURE UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO DEFEND IT.
That said however, I can't be the only one who see's a way that asteros et al can still be used to hunt stabby farmers can I? (and no, I'm not giving it away if you haven't worked it out!)

Lastly I'm going to suggest removal of FW missions altogether. They have no impact on the war at all, yet minmatar millitia channel is constantly full of mission farmers discussing how much they make/hour and the best way to maximise what they make, along with spammed requests to donate every time we get close to dropping back to t3. (The Amarr spies in the channel will back me up on this, they must be as bored as I am with it!) If you don't want to remove them totally, maybe make them a mission arc that can only be repeated once, 1 arc for each current mission level. Standings could be topped up through PvP and offensive plexing (if you defend it!)

Faction war should be about pushing the enemy out of systems, fighting to hold what you have, and making ISK should be a side bonus to this, and nobody should be getting stupidly rich from it (unless they're actually that damn good!) What FW shouldn't be is PvE or Farming World (safe mode only edition) for the masses.

Ok, so I know I'm newish to EvE and FW, but those are my thoughts. I love FW, I even left a corp I was happy in because they decided to move to null and leave the war. I want to see it cebrated as much as the huge battles that made TV. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like this. Cheers for reading!

Doug.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#229 - 2014-05-12 20:23:53 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.



Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again


If it is cloaked, it isn't fighting, therefore your argument is completely moot. None of these ships have been ruined by this change. Remove the hurt from your butt and fight for your faction instead of hiding all the time.

These changes look good. Won't stop stabbed farmers. But if they want to capture, at least they have to tank now.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-05-12 20:24:47 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

"Accessible to new players" does not mean "a 1-day old character can make as much ISK/hr as a years-old missioner can". Sure, that's very accessible to new players, but it's too much. Currently a "new player" in the right faction makes 25,000 LP out of a 10 minute novice plex. That makes for 5 faction frigates, minus their UUA chip prices, which comes out to about 30-40 mil ISK.
If you do 4 of these in an hour, leaving out 20 minutes for being chased around or warping to new plexes, that is 120-160 mil ISK per hour.

There is absolutely no justification for this obscene amount of income being available to a no-skills character. Not only is there no other option available that comes even close to this income for anything but high-SP characters, but someone who can only fly T1 frigates with T1 modules has no use for this sort of income. The content will then be flooded with people who do have use for this high income for this low effort -- every bittervet, his mother, and her cousin's pet rabbit. Welcome to the genesis of a FW farmland.

You and I are in complete agreement that FW farming income is out of whack, and that being able to make 40m / hour in a stabbed T1 frigate is ludicrous. I also would point out that making 600+m/hour in a bomber is even more ridiculous. At the same time, these changes DO raise the bar significantly in terms of the effort required to make obscene isk from plexing. You might still be able to run your 4 novices per hour, but that's a good deal less than running your nov / small / medium. And it's going to take longer to do. It will also require a lot more attention than currently, which is a good thing, and which will at least reduce AFK plexing to a large degree.

I would also point out that FW space is far far more dangerous than pretty much any space other than wormholes for PvE activity. You can currently get around that by using WCS in abundance, but these changes should impact that.

I'm more concerned with how the tier system as it's currently implemented impacts FW income so massively. It's a 100% increase from T1->T2, or 350% increase from T1->T3. Smoothing that curve and lowering the average to around T2 level would change the dynamics significantly. Mission rebalance would also go a long way to changing the farmability of things.

Are these changes the perfect headshot solution? Nope. Do I assess they'll have an impact on FW farming? Yeah I think it will. It'll take a couple months to see how those changes sort themselves out, granted, but I'm looking forward to them.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#231 - 2014-05-12 20:41:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Are these changes the perfect headshot solution? Nope. Do I assess they'll have an impact on FW farming? Yeah I think it will. It'll take a couple months to see how those changes sort themselves out, granted, but I'm looking forward to them.

Eh, true. I concede, I do tend to lean more towards harsh changes for big problems, which is why a band-aid fix like the offered by this thread really ticks me off.

/bittervet

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#232 - 2014-05-12 20:51:50 UTC
hey fozzie you suck, you said there would be timers that tick down
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#233 - 2014-05-12 20:57:51 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Are these changes the perfect headshot solution? Nope. Do I assess they'll have an impact on FW farming? Yeah I think it will. It'll take a couple months to see how those changes sort themselves out, granted, but I'm looking forward to them.

Eh, true. I concede, I do tend to lean more towards harsh changes for big problems, which is why a band-aid fix like the offered by this thread really ticks me off.

/bittervet

I get it. I also have the privilege of flying in the Cal/Gal warzone, which for whatever reason seems to be a lot less farmtastic and toxic than the Min/Amarr zone.

In addition, I cannot wait for the wailing and the gnashing of teeth that shall explode upon the 'verse once CCP gets their PvE authoring tools up and running. CCP mentioned during the FW Roundtable that they were displeased with FW mission balance, and wanted to make significant changes. Things like web / scram / neut towers in L4s, for instance....

Now those tears will be so, so, so delicious...

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#234 - 2014-05-12 22:35:12 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
There are frigates that do over 400 dps
Faction frigates, yes.... not stabbed frigates with cloaks.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#235 - 2014-05-12 22:44:39 UTC
Apart from the large plexs - the changes are not great..

Spawning more rats is a very bad idea.
Less solo pvp will happen.
They discourage new/low sp players from pvp as they previously did.
The less rats you have - the more pvp happens - just look at previous versions of fw and compare.


You said in the OP:
'We have no intention of hard blocking warp core stabs or cloaks from complexes. Players should have tools to help mitigate risk, as long as those tools require tradeoffs.'

What is the trade off of warp stabs for someone who doesn't want to pvp and only wants to run?

There is 0 trade off for them.
They will just get in a stabbed Tristan 29 km off the button and their drones will still kill the rat - then they will still run if someone enters.

Also - Co-ops cloaks should still be able to work in the plex button radius.
There has never been a big problem with cov-ops capable ships due to farmers being risk averse.
It seems silly to destroy a legit ship class/pvp tactic just because you fail to see that stabs and not cloaks are the real issue.


Welcome to Stabbed Tristans online.
They will blot out the sun after the patch.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#236 - 2014-05-12 23:01:00 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Stuff

1. The rats won't do diddly for DPS, so won't be a factor in the overwhelming majority of PvP cases. If the margin was thin enough that the rat DPS would make a difference, it was likely a tossup anyway. I don't really see them discouraging PvP much at all except in the case of extremely risk averse players... who should probably HTFU.

2. The Tristan was actually something I brought up during the Roundtable, and am pretty pleased they pushed the DPS gates as high as they did. With 2x WCS, 5x Hob 1s, and a Tech 1 DDA you get about 85 DPS with perfect skills - less with most plexing alts. Add in a couple meta blasters and an AB and you get about 125-130. They'll be able to run novices with no problem, and as long as they kit guns and have decent skill can probably run smalls as well - though inefficiently if they don't have good skills. Mediums and above will be right out.

I think you'll see them gain a lot in popularity, but I don't think they'll be as successful as you'd think. An Algos with blasters, rigs and 2x WCS can still break 300dps with meta guns, faction ammo and good skills, so I think you'll see those more often in smalls and higher.

Like I said above, this doesn't eliminate farming, and based on CCP Fozzie's latest post I don't think anyone's under the illusion that it will. But it's a step in the right direction at least, and that's a good thing.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2014-05-13 00:19:58 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again


Sorry corpie - I disagree with you here. Nothing keeps these ships from being flown. They just have to sit 30k from the beacon.

If every PVPer in FW fit a cloaky-hunter to catch cloaky-runner ships, the runners would still outnumber us by a large margin. If I come in on a farmer, he cant cloak and now has to run instead of just waiting for me to leave the system. Good riddance to them.

These changes are small, and incremental perhaps, but they are going to have an effect and I am glad for them. Really hope for some bigger ships in the larges now...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2014-05-13 01:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I just don't feel anything that's accessible to new players can be made inaccessible to alts, and am ok with that. At least these changes appear to increase the time / isk / attention investment for offensive plexing, which is a step in the right direction.

"Accessible to new players" does not mean "a 1-day old character can make as much ISK/hr as a years-old missioner can". Sure, that's very accessible to new players, but it's too much. Currently a "new player" in the right faction makes 25,000 LP out of a 10 minute novice plex. That makes for 5 faction frigates, minus their UUA chip prices, which comes out to about 30-40 mil ISK.
If you do 4 of these in an hour, leaving out 20 minutes for being chased around or warping to new plexes, that is 120-160 mil ISK per hour.

There is absolutely no justification for this obscene amount of income being available to a no-skills character. Not only is there no other option available that comes even close to this income for anything but high-SP characters, but someone who can only fly T1 frigates with T1 modules has no use for this sort of income. The content will then be flooded with people who do have use for this high income for this low effort -- every bittervet, his mother, and her cousin's pet rabbit. Welcome to the genesis of a FW farmland.

Reduce FW income significantly (by at least half), to keep it a newbie-friendly PvE activity while slapping every risk-adverse veteran in the face (they could use it). Alternatively, make defending a plex be required to capture it, or otherwise punish running away by more than wasting you an equal amount of time that the plex invader wastes, to push more conflict, risk for reward, and HTFU.

The current mechanic is newbie-friendly, sure. It is also alt-friendly to the point that the alts outnumber the newbies at least 10 to 1 (personal experience approximation, take with a grain of salt). That's not the kind of newbie-friendliness Eve needs.


Ok, I'm beginning to think I understand FW a little bit more.

How about these alterations...

To actually GET loyalty points, you have to first QUALIFY for the points by staying detectable within the capture radius of a site your faction controls.

After qualifying for the loyalty points, you must then go to the 'button' in the center of that site and 'collect' the points (which will take a minimum of 2 minutes)

if your faction loses control of the site, you leave the capture range of the site, or you become otherwise undetectable (by cloaking or being destroyed), you lose whatever loyalty points you have 'qualified' for, but had not collected.

Would this idea be workable in some way? What am I saying? You guys are either going to flame it or ignore it.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2014-05-13 03:01:33 UTC
How did I creeate a link to this thread?

A couple people in game want to read it, but I can't figure out how to link it.
spoon Nardieu
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#240 - 2014-05-13 03:07:33 UTC
I am looking forward to the changes. Being honest, the cloaking changes won't have much of a change unless it comes to that of having a cloaked griffin or falcon inside the plex. In that case they can get jams off past 30k anyways. A timer reset would get people to stay and fight more often. Stabs are the real problem, and the only real solution is maybe mechanics similar to the ESS. However in that case getting your pod out becomes an issue. The reality is that farming will always continue no matter how much we want to mitigate it.