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Mining tax

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Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#1 - 2014-04-17 22:31:39 UTC
Ok so as a corp leader and miner I've been trying to figure out how to even up how people contribute to the corp. Right now people who do missions or combat sites for isk do the brunt of the supporting of a corp in High Sec (this issue is a little less in null sec but still there). So here is a rough proposal to help even things out a bit. Add to the game a mining tax. If you put ore into your hangar the corp automatically takes a % for it's self just like the current tax system works. If a miner deposits the ore with in 5-10 jumps of any system his corp has an office in he pays a different % tax (generally this tax would be lower to encourage miners to work in a certain area and help prevent having a ton of ore in different systems.

Now what keeps miners from just unloading the ore to an alt? Glad you asked. It would be a very simple solution. Currently no ship can mine for more than about 40 minutes without unloading their ore so to keep from having alts store mined ore and refine it the game would keep track of the value of the ore mined and if no ore is put in the corp hangar every hour the game takes isk equal to the mining tax % out of your wallet.

Opinions? Anyone got ways to improve this idea? Post up.
Adunh Slavy
#2 - 2014-04-19 09:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Why not just ask? If your corp is so good, then your members would be willing to help. Instead you want to force them to pay you?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#3 - 2014-04-21 17:18:02 UTC
Why don't we just ask to mission runners and pled runners to just donate too? Because no one willingly parts with their isk. Why should mission runners have to pay a tax to a corp?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2014-04-21 22:01:00 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
Why don't we just ask to mission runners and pled runners to just donate too? Because no one willingly parts with their isk. Why should mission runners have to pay a tax to a corp?



What you do is arrange an ore buying program. Best way to do it.

(or, if you're in Sov Null, you wait for the refining updates, and tax the outpost)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#5 - 2014-04-22 10:26:34 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Naj Panora wrote:
Why don't we just ask to mission runners and pled runners to just donate too? Because no one willingly parts with their isk. Why should mission runners have to pay a tax to a corp?



What you do is arrange an ore buying program. Best way to do it.

(or, if you're in Sov Null, you wait for the refining updates, and tax the outpost)



So what you are saying is only corps that have sov should be allowed to tax ore collection. Good thing I didn't vote for you.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2014-04-22 11:37:03 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Naj Panora wrote:
Why don't we just ask to mission runners and pled runners to just donate too? Because no one willingly parts with their isk. Why should mission runners have to pay a tax to a corp?



What you do is arrange an ore buying program. Best way to do it.

(or, if you're in Sov Null, you wait for the refining updates, and tax the outpost)



So what you are saying is only corps that have sov should be allowed to tax ore collection. Good thing I didn't vote for you.



Did I say that? Or did I say how things are right now?

Anyway, if people aren't willingly parting with things for the corporation, perhaps you should revisit why they're in the corporation? What the benefit of the corporation is to them.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2014-04-25 13:38:57 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Naj Panora wrote:
Why don't we just ask to mission runners and pled runners to just donate too? Because no one willingly parts with their isk. Why should mission runners have to pay a tax to a corp?



What you do is arrange an ore buying program. Best way to do it.

(or, if you're in Sov Null, you wait for the refining updates, and tax the outpost)



So what you are saying is only corps that have sov should be allowed to tax ore collection. Good thing I didn't vote for you.

With a temperament marked by wisdom, patience, and attention to detail I can't imagine why they're so reluctant to give you isk.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
steejans nix
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2014-04-28 11:53:03 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
Ok so as a corp leader and miner I've been trying to figure out how to even up how people contribute to the corp. Right now people who do missions or combat sites for isk do the brunt of the supporting of a corp in High Sec



You a one man corp, you got bigger problems than this if you ripping youreself off........
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#9 - 2014-05-03 04:50:23 UTC
steejans nix wrote:
Naj Panora wrote:
Ok so as a corp leader and miner I've been trying to figure out how to even up how people contribute to the corp. Right now people who do missions or combat sites for isk do the brunt of the supporting of a corp in High Sec



You a one man corp, you got bigger problems than this if you ripping youreself off........



Me a one man corp because i removed the rest of the people in preparation to shut it down for other pursuits.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-05-09 17:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
Mining is already a low-profit profession as it is. If a corp wants mining revenue, they should organize mining ops, take a percentage of the haul, and distribute the rest of the profits amongst the miners. You're getting revenue, providing Orca boosts, and encouraging teamwork.
corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-05-11 10:09:29 UTC
It comes down too commitment. The ratter or noc er can move his alt somewhere, as the miner can choice not to be loyal. Ofc tax creates income, also pi owning pocos, but a pos cant be taxed. So there is a whole field of what u can tax, dont tax, and as in rl if u want to go around it you can. Compagnies liek apple manage to pay less then 1 procent tax workdwide. Eve is no different in that matter.

In eve players make th discission how and what they contribute, in many ways, join the pvp fleet, or keep mining, watch the sion youtube oresentation down under 2013, of goonswarm, amazing show of what makes goons goons, especially listen to minute 19 and further. Its about players willing.

Runign a corporation and allaince myself with frends i can tell u i am not wurried about miners mining, its about people not mining on the corp op, or selling to the programs, build locally and so on. Its commitment on a volunteraly base, because they want to be a part of your team. Ask yourslf if u want be the leader that runs his allaince on tax or on commitment.

I realise this is not the answer you looking for, but i hope it shows some other points of view for you

Greetz core
Csm9
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#12 - 2014-05-11 22:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Jur Tissant wrote:
Mining is already a low-profit profession as it is. If a corp wants mining revenue, they should organize mining ops, take a percentage of the haul, and distribute the rest of the profits amongst the miners. You're getting revenue, providing Orca boosts, and encouraging teamwork.


How is this remotely balanced against PVP corps who just "own a moon" or get "instant tax" when their members go out to make THEIR money.

I don't see PVP corps having to jump through all of these hoops.

A proper corporate mining tax could create a stream of revenue that allowed mining corps to create ship replacement programs of their own. Why should only people who own 60 tech moons have decent ship replacement programs ?

These things ALSO create teamwork and revenue while fixing the disparity between moon owners and non-moon owners.

It also creates a stepping stone to 0.0 for low-sec corporations who don't wish to become a part of the high-sec fruit picker hippy associations that have nothing better to do than organise mining ops all day where people can talk about how their dog has cancer.

All this thread is full of is "why don't your oganise an op?" or "Perhaps you just have the wrong people in your corp." or "Organise an ore buying program".

Ore Buyback is great until you have 50+ people in the corp actively mining. Doing a daily chore of checking each contract MANUALLY (which cannot be done at a pos btw) for errors or ripoffs and paying the person is so incredibly time consuming you will never fly a ship again. Congrats, you are now a glorified accountant.

People are people - I would truly love to see ratting taxes no longer being automatic and see how much screaming there'd be.
Because PVP Corp CEO's have nothing better to do all day than organise a nice spot of group ratting right ?

.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-05-12 00:30:31 UTC
I have been in a mining hisec corp with the queen of the carebears (she has an autographed pic of chribba and everything)

Yes, it would be nice to have a system in place to tax all PvE activities and not just pick on the ratters. Yes there might be ways to evade said taxing but it would show in API's, I suppose.

The person who suggested 'trusting the members to pay their fair share' is playing some game other than Eve.

Should the mechanic exist? Maybe, but then should there also me a shop tax for the traderrs in your corp? After all they are making isk while enjoying your benefits as well, right?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#14 - 2014-05-12 00:47:38 UTC
Remove tax, make it a voluntary effort of the guys in charge and if they don't want any tax from individual activities of corp members than they shouldn't have it, the current mechanics encourage AFK leadership and lazy management.

If we continue down this path of lazy AFK gameplay then we will encourage the...

Something something Atlas Shrugged something something Stalin vs Ayn Rand professional wrestling match.

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#15 - 2014-05-12 01:29:59 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:
Remove tax, make it a voluntary effort of the guys in charge and if they don't want any tax from individual activities of corp members than they shouldn't have it, the current mechanics encourage AFK leadership and lazy management.

If we continue down this path of lazy AFK gameplay then we will encourage the...

Something something Atlas Shrugged something something Stalin vs Ayn Rand professional wrestling match.


You are asking people to just live eve, the amount of work involved in collecting taxes would equate to 18th century tax men having to come around with a big box and put your 4 coppers in every month.

While I'm not a fan of AFK leadership either (and understand your point), I'd prefer that than leadership who isn't AFK being completely shut down in their efforts to progress through the game with their corp.

Most corps that aren't in empire and don't wish to be beholden to 0.0 entities will live out of a POS.

This kind of tax has to be done at that point - the POS - there are even some newish modules to help this along if they'd only change the refinery process to something more sane, throw in the taxation put it into a silo and voila.


.
Zuburan Dezelryder
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-05-12 02:15:21 UTC
While this is by no means a perfect solution -- It is something that has been successful for our Corporation.

As part of the acceptance to join MBALM and partake in the shenanigans of LAWN and the CFC, we ask our new pilots to define themselves as a PVP or Industrial character.

If they decide to claim to be an industrial character, we have a set amount of 'materials' that they must donate to the corporation on a weekly basis in lieu of being held accountable to the CFC PAP Link metrics. (Ofcourse, this comes with the additional task of ensuring we have more PVP pilots than industrialists so our Corporation doesn't suffer in standings but that's a task for my recruiters and I).

We equate their donation to be approximately 2 hours of play time a week. Now, while this post is specifically regarding mining, we allow the donation to be in the form of minerals, rocks, ice products, PI or even time sitting in a booster ship running mining ops for other industrial characters.

This program worked quite well with us while we were in Branch and further away from the active PVP that we now enjoy being in Delve. It was also alot less 'management' involved as it was just a matter of making sure all the industrial characters provided their contribution for the week.

We didn't even care if they purchased what they needed to donate with the proceeds of whatever other PVE activity they were doing.

Anyways, just an option if you're still soliciting them.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#17 - 2014-05-12 04:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Zuburan Dezelryder wrote:
While this is by no means a perfect solution -- It is something that has been successful for our Corporation.

As part of the acceptance to join MBALM and partake in the shenanigans of LAWN and the CFC, we ask our new pilots to define themselves as a PVP or Industrial character.

If they decide to claim to be an industrial character, we have a set amount of 'materials' that they must donate to the corporation on a weekly basis in lieu of being held accountable to the CFC PAP Link metrics. (Ofcourse, this comes with the additional task of ensuring we have more PVP pilots than industrialists so our Corporation doesn't suffer in standings but that's a task for my recruiters and I).

We equate their donation to be approximately 2 hours of play time a week. Now, while this post is specifically regarding mining, we allow the donation to be in the form of minerals, rocks, ice products, PI or even time sitting in a booster ship running mining ops for other industrial characters.

This program worked quite well with us while we were in Branch and further away from the active PVP that we now enjoy being in Delve. It was also alot less 'management' involved as it was just a matter of making sure all the industrial characters provided their contribution for the week.

We didn't even care if they purchased what they needed to donate with the proceeds of whatever other PVE activity they were doing.

Anyways, just an option if you're still soliciting them.


I actually quite like this approach once the organisation is large enough, but the issue would be that you cannot really grow it this way.

By that I mean corporations just starting out with their first few members. It's far easier and less ... "offensive"(?)... to just tax someone 5% or something than to say "Hey you where's your mins?" :)

I really think it has been a long long time - if ever - that anyone on the CSM or CCP has really thought about the progression of corporations from infancy to superpower and made changes to the mechanics to give them some in-game tools for the various needs they meet along the way.

This one is just a basic one that should've been implemented long ago. However, when Eve was young, PVP corps WERE mining corps, so it didn't really matter that the mineral tax was just a part of the station.

Things have changed, but the mechanics have not.

.
Zuburan Dezelryder
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-05-12 04:40:11 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:


I actually quite like this approach once the organisation is large enough, but the issue would be that you cannot really grow it this way.

By that I mean corporations just starting out with their first few members. It's far easier and less ... "offensive"(?)... to just tax someone 5% or something than to say "Hey you where's your mins?" :)

I really think it has been a long long time - if ever - that anyone on the CSM or CCP has really thought about the progression of corporations from infancy to superpower and made changes to the mechanics to give them some in-game tools for the various needs they meet along the way.

This one is just a basic one that should've been implemented long ago. However, when Eve was young, PVP corps WERE mining corps, so it didn't really matter that the mineral tax was just a part of the station.

Things have changed, but the mechanics have not.


It has it's downsides, yes. But we always felt it was easier to actually tell the Corpmate, 'Hey, you missed your contribution. What's up?' When they were made fully aware that this would be an expectation.

We've had to boot a few people from the corp for not following what they agreed on ... but we felt it was the fairest out of it all ... and the least work in managing. It worked out enough where we could keep our own industrial engine running where we could provide the alliance with fitted ships for a profit to the Corporation. Or sell it to other corporations within the alliance.
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#19 - 2014-06-04 00:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Naj Panora
corebloodbrothers wrote:
It comes down too commitment. The ratter or noc er can move his alt somewhere, as the miner can choice not to be loyal. Ofc tax creates income, also pi owning pocos, but a pos cant be taxed. So there is a whole field of what u can tax, dont tax, and as in rl if u want to go around it you can. Compagnies liek apple manage to pay less then 1 procent tax workdwide. Eve is no different in that matter.

In eve players make th discission how and what they contribute, in many ways, join the pvp fleet, or keep mining, watch the sion youtube oresentation down under 2013, of goonswarm, amazing show of what makes goons goons, especially listen to minute 19 and further. Its about players willing.

Runign a corporation and allaince myself with frends i can tell u i am not wurried about miners mining, its about people not mining on the corp op, or selling to the programs, build locally and so on. Its commitment on a volunteraly base, because they want to be a part of your team. Ask yourslf if u want be the leader that runs his allaince on tax or on commitment.

I realise this is not the answer you looking for, but i hope it shows some other points of view for you

Greetz core
Csm9


Core I've flown under you and you're a great pvp guy and good in a large corp/alliance but making some of these comments despite the fact I successfully ran VCA mining ops for how many months was I in VCA? 9 I think (and before anyone jumps me I willingly kept my main in VCA. I had an alt in VC). Largest Op requiring 4 orcas to keep up with the amount of ore we were harvesting so I'm pretty sure me as a player getting people to participate isn't the issue.

Revolution Rising wrote:

Doing a daily chore of checking each contract MANUALLY....for errors or ripoffs and paying the person is so incredibly time consuming you will never fly a ship again. Congrats, you are now a glorified accountant.


You nailed the issue with ore buy programs with this comment and have responded better than I prolly could to the others. This like Rev said is a quality of life improvement that would allow small and medium size corps to micro manage less and focus more on their player and less on "is everyone contributing".
Helven Gallander
Lone Mining
#20 - 2014-06-09 18:21:50 UTC
Dumb, I am a miner too and if I get charge for not doing something chances are I will not be joining any mining corp with that level of bull anytime soon. If you want money for your corp then get a contract from some shipbuilder corp or manufacturing corp and take a percent off the amount of ISK you make and deposit it to corps seems simpler than charging us tax to put our ore in station. Plus you make ISK too why not donate yours.
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