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The Rattlesnake - DPS Buff vs Immersion Nerf - The Right Design ?
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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#21 - 2014-05-11 00:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kueyen wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:

2.75(bonus)*2/5(actual fielded drones now) = 1.1 total bonus in dps over previous drones. High multipliers are perfectly fine game design, as long as they are balanced out. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually run the stats on a new rattler before complaining that everything about it sucks.
More bad math. it's +275%, so x3.75; x3.75 over only 2 heavy drones = 7.5 effective heavies, exactly the same as all other top-end drone-focussed boats (Dominix (+Navy), Ishtar, Eos, Sin, Stratios, Nestor, and Armageddon). So, unlike the Worm (8 effective lights) and Gila (12 effective mediums), the Rattlesnake isn't getting extra-ordinary, never-seen-before Hero heavy/sentry drones: it's getting heavy drones that are 25% better than Geckos, except they won't be able to field the additional 2 mediums and 1 light that the abovementioned boats can (and that all of those get their 50% bonuses to too). And that is why (to me) the Rattlesnake changes look lackluster. So, yes, I am saying: Geckos *erode* the niche that the Rattlesnake is supposed to start occupying (even if they are in a somewhat limited supply).

Don't mistake me for someone who dislikes missiles (on the contrary), but the thirst for a missile "pirate"-faction battleship is already being slaked by the Barghest (and I *will* be getting myself one of those); there's just no need to throw the Rattler's drone focus under the bus to fill that hole anymore.

Even something as small as increasing the drone bonus to +300% (8 effective) is enough (for me) to give the proper message that the Rattlesnake is where it's at for heavy drones and sentries. Which is what "pirate"-faction is all about (let's not get bogged down by the disappointment that is the Nestor for now). But adding a slot (anywhere) would be better (and *not* unprecedented: the Worm and Gila have the normal number of slots for "pirate"-faction ships of their size class too, not the -1 "because drones" penalty that is common elsewhere).


Unfortunately, The Gurista's flagship, the Rattlesnake, the Flagship of the Pirate faction that Has superior drone damage and application as it's pirate flavour. Does not have the Application bonuses of the T1 Dominix or The dominixes bonuses to all drone classes. It is wildly inferior in it's drone system.
So unless the Dominix has suddenly become a Gurista's boat something is widely amiss.

Just more DPS is not the answer, Applying that DPS in a new and different manner is.
Giving the Rattlesnake Gecko like bonuses to their heavy drones, would go a long way, Dropping the fifth launcher and buffing the drones to compensate Also gets there, but Just DPS is not enough.
Making Heavy drones work as they need to, or fitting Gila class medium drones bonused up for battleship, or fielding 4 or 5 with the appropriate damage again will also get things on the right track.

Since the Omni nerf sentries only shine on tracking bonused hulls. either give them that bonus, or forget sentries and go all in with 4 Gila class Medium hero drones.

This ship needs a serious re-evaluation, It appears that less time was spent on it than the Gila ( which looks pretty good) or the worm (again interesting) The rattlesnake just does not get there, Mega DPS for the EFT warriors to get super excited over, Real ship potential however is completely missing.

It is not a BAD ship, but it certainly is substandard at so many levels, and needs a good looking at.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#22 - 2014-05-11 00:20:00 UTC
I think the Rattlesnake is basically set in stone at this point.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#23 - 2014-05-11 00:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I think the Rattlesnake is basically set in stone at this point.


If it is It will be a monument to poor implementation.

Hopefully they have learnt, that rushed designs, hang around causing them grief, long after the time saved, by doing so, has been long long forgotten.Ugh

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#24 - 2014-05-11 00:25:23 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
If it is It will be a monument to poor implementation.

No, the Nestor holds that distinction... The redesign appeals to enough PvP players that it will probably be touted as a success. Best thing to do is wait for the Mordu's Legion ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#25 - 2014-05-11 00:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
If it is It will be a monument to poor implementation.

No, the Nestor holds that distinction... The redesign appeals to enough PvP players that it will probably be touted as a success. Best thing to do is wait for the Mordu's Legion ships.


Yes, hopefully a fresh design will be better done. It will be interesting to see what Fozzie comes up with for it.

Because although I have a rattlesnake, I will not be interested in it unless things change, The only question is do I wait to sell it and destroy the rigs, or do it whilst people are still buying, and before they discover what actually is being delivered.
Because passive shield rigs have absolutely no place on the new ship.

If I really think it is set in stone, I will sell it in a heartbeat. hmmm wait a minute? I wonder if it would make good bait? Cheaper than the Nestor.

The Gila is quite another thing, That will be fun to use.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#26 - 2014-05-11 04:17:14 UTC
unnownrelic wrote:
A Vindicator isn't bonused for small and medium turret damage, so why should the Rattlesnake receive a bonus for small and medium drones? Admittedly the across-the-board missile damage bonus is a little anomalous, but that doesn't mean the drone bonus should be. Plus, you can still field a full flight of lights and mediums without any problems with your available bandwidth, just like you could easily fit a full rack of 8 small or medium turrets to your Vindicator. It's a ship with a purpose, and that purpose appears to be using heavy drones and any missile it feels like to brawl the bejeebers out of things. If you want to hit out to much longer ranges with your drones you have to start making compromises of some kind, but is that really so bad or out of line?

And lastly, one does not balance around a single special snowflake drone.



Turret systems are not drone systems. They are balanced differently. Part of the balance of the standard drone 10%/level bonus is the flexibility to field bonused flights of smaller drones. They pay for that in a few ways that are unique to drone bonused ships, primarily in that drones are the only destructible weapon system, and drone bonused ships lose a slot to that drone bonus. The superdrone bonus adds an increased vulnerability to disruption effects and larger penalty to losing even a single drone to the standard drawbacks of drones as a weapon system and a reduced flexibility due to losing bonuses to off weightclass drones.

The superdrone bonus, if left at the break even bonus of +275% is a nerf to the Rattlesnakes drone ability. This would be true on the lighter hulls as well, except they were compensated for the drawbacks of the concept with a 60% increase in DPS. In addition, the Rattlesnake will suffer from inefficiency in fitting for 2 discreet weapons systems.

The way to do split weapons systems has been demonstrated in the Minmatar line, where the bonuses to both weapons are outsized so that you can choose which to emphasize while still taking some advantage of the secondary system, or the Amarr line where drones are accompanied by full racks of unbonused weapons of multiple types. There is no reason to dilute the ability of the drone weapon system because it is part of a split weapon setup. If the Rattlesnake were to receive the missile bonus change alongside the standard drone bonus and expanded bay it enjoys now, no one would bat an eye. As the Superdrone concept has been established as being worth a 60% upgrade in performance, that is where the Rattlesnake should be, not a break even point that ultimately amounts to a nerf of the drone system of the ship.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Unfortunately, The Gurista's flagship, the Rattlesnake, the Flagship of the Pirate faction that Has superior drone damage and application as it's pirate flavour. Does not have the Application bonuses of the T1 Dominix or The dominixes bonuses to all drone classes. It is wildly inferior in it's drone system.
So unless the Dominix has suddenly become a Gurista's boat something is widely amiss.

Just more DPS is not the answer, Applying that DPS in a new and different manner is.
Giving the Rattlesnake Gecko like bonuses to their heavy drones, would go a long way, Dropping the fifth launcher and buffing the drones to compensate Also gets there, but Just DPS is not enough.
Making Heavy drones work as they need to, or fitting Gila class medium drones bonused up for battleship, or fielding 4 or 5 with the appropriate damage again will also get things on the right track.


DPS *can* be the answer, if the increase is appropriate. The snake has no shortage of mid and low slots with which to improve application should a pilot wish to fit it that way. The base tank of a Rattlesnake lacks not at all, and other than tank and prop mods it does not require much in the way of capacitor to eat those slots up. It's all about choices--- but if the bonus is left at it is, the ship just looses and the choices are not really meaningful because you become strong armed into compensating for the imposed weaknesses instead of choosing where to shine.
M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-05-11 05:05:41 UTC
you are forgetting that drones are getting buffed overall, and will have faction damage modules for the first time ever.

So if you compare heavy drones today vs expansion, the new heavy drones will be doing far more dps than today. Only people left "out" are sentry drone people. Who CCP has clearly indicated needed some nerf batting.

just be glad they didn't go all nuclear on them like they did heavy missiles.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-05-11 05:11:48 UTC
M Key wrote:
you are forgetting that drones are getting buffed overall, and will have faction damage modules for the first time ever.

So if you compare heavy drones today vs expansion, the new heavy drones will be doing far more dps than today. Only people left "out" are sentry drone people. Who CCP has clearly indicated needed some nerf batting.

just be glad they didn't go all nuclear on them like they did heavy missiles.


Please explain how drones are buffed overall, apart of the speed bonus.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#29 - 2014-05-11 06:15:38 UTC
M Key wrote:
you are forgetting that drones are getting buffed overall, and will have faction damage modules for the first time ever.

So if you compare heavy drones today vs expansion, the new heavy drones will be doing far more dps than today. Only people left "out" are sentry drone people. Who CCP has clearly indicated needed some nerf batting.

just be glad they didn't go all nuclear on them like they did heavy missiles.


That is immaterial unless they change all the hull bonuses in some way. Regardless of the stats of a drone, the standard 10%/level drone bonus is 7.5 effective drones in space. The Rattlesnake is gaining further penalties to drones than are suffered by other ships with a bonus, and loses flexibility (in fact, more than the lighter hulls as they didnt have as much bay and/or bandwidth to play with even though they got that 60% increase in performance) but is still going to put out just 7.5 effective large drones. It gains almost nothing in the superdrone concept, but pays as much or more for it as the lighter hulls did.

The 275% bonus is just simply too weak. No matter how you want to compare, it makes the drones put out by the Rattlesnake inferior to the drones put out by any other Drone bonused battleship, and a fair number of the drone bonused cruisers and battlecruisers.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#30 - 2014-05-11 07:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mike Voidstar wrote:
unnownrelic wrote:
A Vindicator isn't bonused for small and medium turret damage, so why should the Rattlesnake receive a bonus for small and medium drones? Admittedly the across-the-board missile damage bonus is a little anomalous, but that doesn't mean the drone bonus should be. Plus, you can still field a full flight of lights and mediums without any problems with your available bandwidth, just like you could easily fit a full rack of 8 small or medium turrets to your Vindicator. It's a ship with a purpose, and that purpose appears to be using heavy drones and any missile it feels like to brawl the bejeebers out of things. If you want to hit out to much longer ranges with your drones you have to start making compromises of some kind, but is that really so bad or out of line?

And lastly, one does not balance around a single special snowflake drone.



Turret systems are not drone systems. They are balanced differently. Part of the balance of the standard drone 10%/level bonus is the flexibility to field bonused flights of smaller drones. They pay for that in a few ways that are unique to drone bonused ships, primarily in that drones are the only destructible weapon system, and drone bonused ships lose a slot to that drone bonus. The superdrone bonus adds an increased vulnerability to disruption effects and larger penalty to losing even a single drone to the standard drawbacks of drones as a weapon system and a reduced flexibility due to losing bonuses to off weightclass drones.

The superdrone bonus, if left at the break even bonus of +275% is a nerf to the Rattlesnakes drone ability. This would be true on the lighter hulls as well, except they were compensated for the drawbacks of the concept with a 60% increase in DPS. In addition, the Rattlesnake will suffer from inefficiency in fitting for 2 discreet weapons systems.

The way to do split weapons systems has been demonstrated in the Minmatar line, where the bonuses to both weapons are outsized so that you can choose which to emphasize while still taking some advantage of the secondary system, or the Amarr line where drones are accompanied by full racks of unbonused weapons of multiple types. There is no reason to dilute the ability of the drone weapon system because it is part of a split weapon setup. If the Rattlesnake were to receive the missile bonus change alongside the standard drone bonus and expanded bay it enjoys now, no one would bat an eye. As the Superdrone concept has been established as being worth a 60% upgrade in performance, that is where the Rattlesnake should be, not a break even point that ultimately amounts to a nerf of the drone system of the ship.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Unfortunately, The Gurista's flagship, the Rattlesnake, the Flagship of the Pirate faction that Has superior drone damage and application as it's pirate flavour. Does not have the Application bonuses of the T1 Dominix or The dominixes bonuses to all drone classes. It is wildly inferior in it's drone system.
So unless the Dominix has suddenly become a Gurista's boat something is widely amiss.

Just more DPS is not the answer, Applying that DPS in a new and different manner is.
Giving the Rattlesnake Gecko like bonuses to their heavy drones, would go a long way, Dropping the fifth launcher and buffing the drones to compensate Also gets there, but Just DPS is not enough.
Making Heavy drones work as they need to, or fitting Gila class medium drones bonused up for battleship, or fielding 4 or 5 with the appropriate damage again will also get things on the right track.


DPS *can* be the answer, if the increase is appropriate. The snake has no shortage of mid and low slots with which to improve application should a pilot wish to fit it that way. The base tank of a Rattlesnake lacks not at all, and other than tank and prop mods it does not require much in the way of capacitor to eat those slots up. It's all about choices--- but if the bonus is left at it is, the ship just looses and the choices are not really meaningful because you become strong armed into compensating for the imposed weaknesses instead of choosing where to shine.

I agree with you, The issue is one of having the right overall implementation, the hero drone concept is not bad in itself, but it does have effects that need compensating for.

I know CCP have time constraints like any business, and with a major expansion coming up, trying to have something to announce for Fanfest adds to this, and this job was at the end of the queue, shortcuts in the design process have clearly been taken. This can lead to unpredictable results. Some ships hit the mark others fall well short.

Compare the Industrial rebalance, the initial suggestions from the Devs, were revisited based on discussion,accepting good ideas where they offered an improvement. These are now very popular and successful.

The rattlesnake? well let me pen an analogy.
The industrial ship redesign, A fine piece of technical drawing with revisions, rework, leading to a quality blueprint.
The rattlesnake? A quick charcoal sketch....... fine as a first draft but no substitute for a final blueprint.

Regarding the lesser Ships, The Gila Clearly has great potential as does the Worm, They clearly Match the quoted and stated vision. They may not be Perfect, but no one expects perfection in a game.

So CCP The Rattlesnake Desperately needs someone to Have another look, and reconsider. The issues are blindingly clear to anyone who wishes to see. We look forward to your new well considered, and implemented version of the Flagship of the Guirista's faction.

The Vision for the Gurista's line was announced at Fanfest, thankfully not the details, as this Ship, The Rattlesnake, simply fails to meet that Vision in any way.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#31 - 2014-05-11 18:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Kueyen wrote:
More bad math.

Yes, I just realized I made the same mistake in my assumption, though I did not write it down, thx for pointing it out.

Regarding this and some older issues with the Omni-directionals, drone aggro and other things mentioned by epicurus ataraxia and mike voidstar I think that a further evaluation is not only necessary but very much a must.

Since the Omni redesign (nerf in my eyes) there is a lack of tracking and range, making the Omnis scriptable does not help the issue, especially not after the prolonged duration, which makes changing script at the right moment almost impossible. If there is need for changing a script its due to the oppositions ability to overcome said obstacle too quickly to deal with and therefore waiting another 15-20 seconds to adjust takes them completely out of the reach of deployed drones, This period leads to a substantial drop in dps and forces re deployment instead of re-scripting, which can't be the goal.
Overheating is an option that might be decisive in 0.001% of engagements and should not fall into the 'nerf' evaluation. Overheating my faction mods for rats - LOL.

Another issue besides normal drone aggro is reshuffling/recalling aggressed/damaged drones and under the influence of ewar. Until now npcs usually focus only on one drone, taken out, recalled or reshuffled I would lose 20% of my dps, now I would lose 50% (not counting missiles, since they only contribute 20% of my total damaged and are not used vs anything smaller then BS and for those I use 2 volleys, no matter what. The flat damage of those does not fall into my dps considerations).

Further more, besides the interesting Hero Drone concept (which I still believe is implemented flawed with the Rattlesnake) it misses out on something special, something really different, that sets it apart from yet another drone or missile boat or dual weapon system ship.

Also, losing a drone now do to 'circumstances' hits much harder, as well as reshuffling with a smaller drone bay. Not only is half the dps off the field for a moment, replacing it will be much harder now without supply lines. With sentries I am able to take 2 flights with me, 3 if specialized. Which of course will be possible after the expansion too, but with much less effectiveness. An aggressed drone can not be recalled and redeployed again, it will take instant aggro and be destroyed. and deploying a single warden next to a single guard is .... meh!!!


Some more suggestions would be:

EWar Immunity for 'Hero' Heavy and Sentry drones - to keep the Hero drones active and flying

1000% to small remote armor repair and/or small remote shield booster range (role bonus or in steps bey each Gallente/Caldari side) - to keep the drones alive longer

8th high slot as support (no 5th launcher) - to give the option of drone augmentor plus remote repair module in a 3/0, 2/1, 1/2 or even 0/3 fashion.

Reduce Omnidirectionl cycle time and cap usage to 10-20% of the current value.

As something out of the box of the line ... increase target painter effectiveness ?



And btw., I am glad about the many different responses, to me it doesn't look like the Rattlesnake is set in stone in regards to the community - Cheers
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