These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#821 - 2014-05-10 19:28:31 UTC
Does anyone else see a problem with the potential length of higher-level research jobs in Kronos? It was mentioned earlier but haven't seen much discussion on this aspect ....

Currently almost everything(?) you do in EVE takes less than 1 - 2 months - and even the highest quality ME / TE can be incrementally improved in ~1 month increments.

Kronos seems to be bringing some research increments on the order of ~Years instead of months (for some BPO's) ...

What do people think - is this a significant issue or nothing to worry about?

When CCP seems to actively be making everything "more accessible" for newer players, does it make sense to be creating jobs that have to bake in the oven (without any interaction, completely all or nothing with no way to pause / stop / move / adjust for that long without losing all research costs/mats/progress)?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#822 - 2014-05-10 19:32:56 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Currently almost everything(?) you do in EVE takes less than 1 - 2 months - and even the highest quality ME / TE can be incrementally improved in ~1 month increments.

titan bpos are like three-month jobs per me (with 40% time off)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#823 - 2014-05-10 19:37:44 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

If you couldn't figure out that researching to 2 waste divider drips waste to 5%, and 3 to 3.33% and 4 to 2.5%, then you should be doing manufacturing....

you still haven't figured out the concept of return on capital given your relentless complaining about carriers, probably the most important manufacturing concept, and you're talking about who should be doing manufacturing

lawl

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Sigras
Conglomo
#824 - 2014-05-10 19:42:37 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Im beginning to agree with CCP on this one. The only complaint I still maintain is moving to a 100 level system instead of a 10 level system.


Did you read my post on carrier construction, where the move to always round up means you have top produce billion ISK ships in bulk and to get a pretty goob BPO will take 5 years instead of 3 months? Move to 100 steps only takes a few months off the 5 years that will be required to get 11 to be 10 with the new "always round up".

ME 9 is all that's required to get a perfect archon, and ME 9 only takes 28 months. I understand that 28 months is quite a bit more than the 16 it took to get perfect before, but getting a perfect archon BPO should not be an easy thing...

Yes I realize that researching level 10 will save you 2/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job (the max you can do in a month) but really the 2% discount drops that to 1/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job...

It really isnt as big a deal as youre making it out to be.

LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the idea of teams, because it is only going to make the large, rich corporations larger and richer at the expense of the casual player.

WAT? teams are actually going to benefit the casual player ...

The big guys have big operations and take a long time to move, so theyre going to have to pay for the teams to come to them. The small guy can just pick up and move to where the big guys payed for the team to go... I explained it at length here

LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the implementation of infinite slots that bases cost on total solar system wide usage rather than activity inside a specific facility that would allow all components for a titan to be built in a single component assembly array in a single small POS. It simply makes no sense. And IF CCP makes the usage information available through the API, then it is a super easy source of data on where your enemy is building his supers.

This is why CCP is talking about a bonus to having multiple arrays in the POS. Also I like being able to infer where my opponent is building their super caps... more strategic targeting of assets.

LHA Tarawa wrote:
But, with all there is to hate, and so little to like, by far the worst, in my opinion, is the changes involving material reductions and what that does to the BPOs that need small numbers of inputs.

The only things really effected by this are going to be cap ships, rigs and ammo.

Cap ships we've already covered.

Rigs and ammo get made in batches, so the rounding isnt going to be a problem now that discounts are calculated per job.
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#825 - 2014-05-10 19:52:42 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Does anyone else see a problem with the potential length of higher-level research jobs in Kronos? It was mentioned earlier but haven't seen much discussion on this aspect ....

Currently almost everything(?) you do in EVE takes less than 1 - 2 months - and even the highest quality ME / TE can be incrementally improved in ~1 month increments.

Kronos seems to be bringing some research increments on the order of ~Years instead of months (for some BPO's) ...

What do people think - is this a significant issue or nothing to worry about?

When CCP seems to actively be making everything "more accessible" for newer players, does it make sense to be creating jobs that have to bake in the oven (without any interaction, completely all or nothing with no way to pause / stop / move / adjust for that long without losing all research costs/mats/progress)?



there was long discussion but was deleted by mods:P.

Yea we are aware of it.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#826 - 2014-05-10 21:28:49 UTC
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Im beginning to agree with CCP on this one. The only complaint I still maintain is moving to a 100 level system instead of a 10 level system.


Did you read my post on carrier construction, where the move to always round up means you have top produce billion ISK ships in bulk and to get a pretty goob BPO will take 5 years instead of 3 months? Move to 100 steps only takes a few months off the 5 years that will be required to get 11 to be 10 with the new "always round up".

ME 9 is all that's required to get a perfect archon, and ME 9 only takes 28 months. I understand that 28 months is quite a bit more than the 16 it took to get perfect before, but getting a perfect archon BPO should not be an easy thing...

Yes I realize that researching level 10 will save you 2/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job (the max you can do in a month) but really the 2% discount drops that to 1/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job...

It really isnt as big a deal as youre making it out to be.



So, we used to be able to get sub 1% waste in 3 months and now reasonable research is over 2 years.. but, you know... it's not that big a deal.

And, sure, everyone is going to be running billion ISK ships in batches of 3 or more. Right. Not a big deal.

You, like others in this thread, are clearly using a different language than me.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#827 - 2014-05-10 21:32:16 UTC
Sigras wrote:

LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the idea of teams, because it is only going to make the large, rich corporations larger and richer at the expense of the casual player.

WAT? teams are actually going to benefit the casual player ...

The big guys have big operations and take a long time to move, so theyre going to have to pay for the teams to come to them. The small guy can just pick up and move to where the big guys payed for the team to go... I explained it at length here



Paaaaahhhhhlease.

The big guys with thousands of toons and tens of thousands of concurrent manufacturing job potential are going to WAY out bid what little guys will be able to pay for teams, then they are going to sit at gates and gank anyone not in their alliance that tries to bring resources into the system to take advantage of the teams they overbid for.

No need to move when you've got the bucks to bring the team to you, the number of players to make the most of the unlimited number of jobs that can be effected by teams, and the ability to gank anyone trying to come to your home to clom onto the team you paid for.

Teams is Goon nervana, and death to any small industrial corp that used to try to build things.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#828 - 2014-05-10 21:34:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:
[
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the implementation of infinite slots that bases cost on total solar system wide usage rather than activity inside a specific facility that would allow all components for a titan to be built in a single component assembly array in a single small POS. It simply makes no sense. And IF CCP makes the usage information available through the API, then it is a super easy source of data on where your enemy is building his supers.

This is why CCP is talking about a bonus to having multiple arrays in the POS. Also I like being able to infer where my opponent is building their super caps... more strategic targeting of assets.



Another hack to cover up failed design, and I don't mind you figuring out where your enemies are building suppers, I just think you should have to work for it, like traveling around their space looking for a lot of component construction arrays. I don't think it should be as easy and as "out of game" as pulling the solar system usagae reports from the API.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#829 - 2014-05-10 21:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Another hack to cover up failed design, and I don't mind you figuring out where your enemies are building suppers, I just think you should have to work for it, like traveling around their space looking for a lot of component construction arrays. I don't think it should be as easy and as "out of game" as pulling the solar system usagae reports from the API.

in todays "basic features of EVE Online LHA Tarawa is unaware of" it is currently trivial to find every CSAA an alliance owns provided you can get a single character in the alliance with no roles whatsoever (absolutely trivial for anyone looking to kill csaas)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2014-05-10 23:45:25 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
Does anyone else see a problem with the potential length of higher-level research jobs in Kronos? It was mentioned earlier but haven't seen much discussion on this aspect ....

Currently almost everything(?) you do in EVE takes less than 1 - 2 months - and even the highest quality ME / TE can be incrementally improved in ~1 month increments.

Kronos seems to be bringing some research increments on the order of ~Years instead of months (for some BPO's) ...

What do people think - is this a significant issue or nothing to worry about?

When CCP seems to actively be making everything "more accessible" for newer players, does it make sense to be creating jobs that have to bake in the oven (without any interaction, completely all or nothing with no way to pause / stop / move / adjust for that long without losing all research costs/mats/progress)?



there was long discussion but was deleted by mods:P.

Yea we are aware of it.


Ahhh thanks for the scoop Apelacia.
Sigras
Conglomo
#831 - 2014-05-11 00:27:24 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Im beginning to agree with CCP on this one. The only complaint I still maintain is moving to a 100 level system instead of a 10 level system.


Did you read my post on carrier construction, where the move to always round up means you have top produce billion ISK ships in bulk and to get a pretty goob BPO will take 5 years instead of 3 months? Move to 100 steps only takes a few months off the 5 years that will be required to get 11 to be 10 with the new "always round up".

ME 9 is all that's required to get a perfect archon, and ME 9 only takes 28 months. I understand that 28 months is quite a bit more than the 16 it took to get perfect before, but getting a perfect archon BPO should not be an easy thing...

Yes I realize that researching level 10 will save you 2/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job (the max you can do in a month) but really the 2% discount drops that to 1/3 of a capital drone bay per carrier on a 3 carrier job...

It really isnt as big a deal as youre making it out to be.

So, we used to be able to get sub 1% waste in 3 months and now reasonable research is over 2 years.. but, you know... it's not that big a deal.

I love how you're using the POS boosted research time as the "former time to perfect" and the non POS boosted time for the "after time to perfect" just to emphasize your point and skew the argument in your favor... but, you know... it's not that big a deal.
[quote=LHA Tarawa]And, sure, everyone is going to be running billion ISK ships in batches of 3 or more. Right. Not a big deal.

You, like others in this thread, are clearly using a different language than me.
Well if youre not running billion isk ships in batches of 3 then ME 9 is absolutely perfect... also have you ever heard of economies of scale?
Sigras
Conglomo
#832 - 2014-05-11 00:47:22 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:

LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the idea of teams, because it is only going to make the large, rich corporations larger and richer at the expense of the casual player.

WAT? teams are actually going to benefit the casual player ...

The big guys have big operations and take a long time to move, so theyre going to have to pay for the teams to come to them. The small guy can just pick up and move to where the big guys payed for the team to go... I explained it at length here

Paaaaahhhhhlease.

The big guys with thousands of toons and tens of thousands of concurrent manufacturing job potential are going to WAY out bid what little guys will be able to pay for teams, then they are going to sit at gates and gank anyone not in their alliance that tries to bring resources into the system to take advantage of the teams they overbid for.

No need to move when you've got the bucks to bring the team to you, the number of players to make the most of the unlimited number of jobs that can be effected by teams, and the ability to gank anyone trying to come to your home to clom onto the team you paid for.

Teams is Goon nervana, and death to any small industrial corp that used to try to build things.

sure, if you're idiotic enough to pack your freighter full of crap and make yourself profitable to gank... Or they can just throw isk away.

Or you could scout the gate to see if a gank is waiting for you...

Additionally, if an alliance is able to run a 24/7 gank squad to prevent me from coming into the system; and they were able to outbid everyone else to get the team in that system, I think they deserve it, and ill just use one of the other 3999 teams in new eden.
Sigras
Conglomo
#833 - 2014-05-11 00:48:43 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
[
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I hate the implementation of infinite slots that bases cost on total solar system wide usage rather than activity inside a specific facility that would allow all components for a titan to be built in a single component assembly array in a single small POS. It simply makes no sense. And IF CCP makes the usage information available through the API, then it is a super easy source of data on where your enemy is building his supers.

This is why CCP is talking about a bonus to having multiple arrays in the POS. Also I like being able to infer where my opponent is building their super caps... more strategic targeting of assets.



Another hack to cover up failed design, and I don't mind you figuring out where your enemies are building suppers, I just think you should have to work for it, like traveling around their space looking for a lot of component construction arrays. I don't think it should be as easy and as "out of game" as pulling the solar system usagae reports from the API.

by this logic, eve-central shouldnt exist ... in fact they shouldnt even make the API available by that logic.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#834 - 2014-05-11 00:54:12 UTC
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

So, we used to be able to get sub 1% waste in 3 months and now reasonable research is over 2 years.. but, you know... it's not that big a deal.

I love how you're using the POS boosted research time as the "former time to perfect" and the non POS boosted time for the "after time to perfect" just to emphasize your point and skew the argument in your favor... but, you know... it's not that big a deal.
[quote=LHA Tarawa]And, sure, everyone is going to be running billion ISK ships in batches of 3 or more. Right. Not a big deal.

You, like others in this thread, are clearly using a different language than me.
Well if youre not running billion isk ships in batches of 3 then ME 9 is absolutely perfect... also have you ever heard of economies of scale?

If you look at the other change to research, namely the "BPO's must be in the pos lab to be researched there" part then this calculation is entirely reasonable. Because you could lockdown the Bpo in station and remote researcdh in a pos, using the pos as a baseline made sense. as that was what most people would be using and it was a popular choice.
After Kronos, because of that change, planting a bpo in a pos lab simply wont make sense as any pos with labs means there are bpo's in them. loot drops possible. Using station services is much more reasonable and it is expected even by CCP to be the way that expensive bpo's in general get researched

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#835 - 2014-05-11 01:15:40 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I love how you're using the POS boosted research time as the "former time to perfect" and the non POS boosted time for the "after time to perfect" just to emphasize your point and skew the argument in your favor... but, you know... it's not that big a deal.
[quote=LHA Tarawa]And, sure, everyone is going to be running billion ISK ships in batches of 3 or more. Right. Not a big deal.

You, like others in this thread, are clearly using a different language than me.
Well if youre not running billion isk ships in batches of 3 then ME 9 is absolutely perfect... also have you ever heard of economies of scale?


Actually I'm using POS boosted research times in both cases.

To get to 9, you have to go through all the other levels first, so 108K + 45K + 20K + 8K + 3K + rounding errors. 184K seconds. A capital BPO will have a multiplying factor of 854, so 157 million seconds = 44K hours= 1819 days = 5 years. Take away something like 30% for skills and POS and you're at 3 years. Just going from 8 to 9 is an unadjusted , 2.9 years, which I'm adjusting down to 2 years to be in line with the 3 months adjusted down for current system.

As for 9 being perfect in a batch of 3. 18 * .91 = 16.28 which will round to 17. 15 was what was achievable in the old system with 3 months of research. Even at 10 (another 5 years of research, AT POS accelerated rates) a batch of 3 is insufficient to get back to the old perfect of 15.... 18 * .9 = 16.2 so still rounds to 17.

Even if you are running at a fully upgraded outpost with +5 ME and a -10% BPO, a batch of 3 is not enough. 18 * .85 = 15.3 = 16.

A batch of 5 = 26... still not back to 5.

A batch of 10, 60 * .85 = 51... so STILL not back to the old 5 per.

A batch of 20... 120 * .85 = 102, so STILL not back to 5 per.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#836 - 2014-05-11 01:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
So.....

Let's say for the sake of argument that it is too late to back out this debacle. What is the minimum set of last minute hacks needed?

Using other people's proposed ideas.

In my opinion:
1) Actually have ME be 0-100 behind the scenes. representing 0% reduction to 10.0% reduction (reduction = ME / 10). Only allow research to units smaller than 10 when a whole % (like 8 to 9 or 9 to 10) will take more than a month. The big round up only needs to go to X.X% 9.1 for ME10. 9.2 for ME11. 9.4 for ME15. 9.5 for ME 20...9.8 for ME 50....9.9 for ME 100.

2) For capital ships and T2, multiply BPO component needs by 10. Change components BPOs to produce batches of 10. Multiply inventory components by 10. Divide size of components by 10. Rigs, ammo, fuels, and other things that need low numbers of inputs, it is reasonable to produce in batches of 10s and 20s to get a good round, and PI produced stuff like construction blocks, we'll just have to accept a harsh round.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#837 - 2014-05-11 01:35:38 UTC
Sigras wrote:
by this logic, eve-central shouldnt exist ... in fact they shouldnt even make the API available by that logic.


WHAT? You can use EVE Central to figure out where the enemy is building super capitals?
Sigras
Conglomo
#838 - 2014-05-11 02:26:26 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Actually I'm using POS boosted research times in both cases.

To get to 9, you have to go through all the other levels first, so 108K + 45K + 20K + 8K + 3K + rounding errors. 184K seconds. A capital BPO will have a multiplying factor of 854, so 157 million seconds = 44K hours= 1819 days = 5 years. Take away something like 30% for skills and POS and you're at 3 years. Just going from 8 to 9 is an unadjusted , 2.9 years, which I'm adjusting down to 2 years to be in line with the 3 months adjusted down for current system.

I get 2.7 years to go from 0-9, but my miscalculation came from a wrong assumption.

I thought the numbers posted in the blog were the cumulative time to get to that level, IE on a rank 1 BPO I figured it would take 1 day to go from 0-9 and 12 hours to go from 0-8. Is it states somewhere that those numbers are per level?

LHA Tarawa wrote:
As for 9 being perfect in a batch of 3. 18 * .91 = 16.28 which will round to 17. 15 was what was achievable in the old system with 3 months of research. Even at 10 (another 5 years of research, AT POS accelerated rates) a batch of 3 is insufficient to get back to the old perfect of 15.... 18 * .9 = 16.2 so still rounds to 17.

Even if you are running at a fully upgraded outpost with +5 ME and a -10% BPO, a batch of 3 is not enough. 18 * .85 = 15.3 = 16.

A batch of 5 = 26... still not back to 5.

A batch of 10, 60 * .85 = 51... so STILL not back to the old 5 per.

A batch of 20... 120 * .85 = 102, so STILL not back to 5 per.

Which carrier are you building that has a base anything of 15?! I was basing my numbers off the archon...

Additionally, something with a former base of 15 would have a base of 17 after the change, not 18 because 15 * 1.1 = 16.5 rounded up to 17 mot 18

Lastly, they could (not saying they will but they could) leave the base at 16.5 to keep everything exactly the same, but this would add a TON of complexity and the UI would again be lying to the players so ... probably not...
Sigras
Conglomo
#839 - 2014-05-11 02:31:57 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
by this logic, eve-central shouldnt exist ... in fact they shouldnt even make the API available by that logic.


WHAT? You can use EVE Central to figure out where the enemy is building super capitals?

you were complaining about an out of game resource by which players can gain an advantage, so I listed another out of game resource that people use to gain an advantage.

Also, IIRC you can use the API to see how many NPCs/Ships/Pods have been killed recently thus telling you where people are ratting etc. This would also give you a game changing advantage from an out of game resource...
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#840 - 2014-05-11 04:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Actually I'm using POS boosted research times in both cases.

To get to 9, you have to go through all the other levels first, so 108K + 45K + 20K + 8K + 3K + rounding errors. 184K seconds. A capital BPO will have a multiplying factor of 854, so 157 million seconds = 44K hours= 1819 days = 5 years. Take away something like 30% for skills and POS and you're at 3 years. Just going from 8 to 9 is an unadjusted , 2.9 years, which I'm adjusting down to 2 years to be in line with the 3 months adjusted down for current system.

I get 2.7 years to go from 0-9, but my miscalculation came from a wrong assumption.

I thought the numbers posted in the blog were the cumulative time to get to that level, IE on a rank 1 BPO I figured it would take 1 day to go from 0-9 and 12 hours to go from 0-8. Is it states somewhere that those numbers are per level?

LHA Tarawa wrote:
As for 9 being perfect in a batch of 3. 18 * .91 = 16.28 which will round to 17. 15 was what was achievable in the old system with 3 months of research. Even at 10 (another 5 years of research, AT POS accelerated rates) a batch of 3 is insufficient to get back to the old perfect of 15.... 18 * .9 = 16.2 so still rounds to 17.

Even if you are running at a fully upgraded outpost with +5 ME and a -10% BPO, a batch of 3 is not enough. 18 * .85 = 15.3 = 16.

A batch of 5 = 26... still not back to 5.

A batch of 10, 60 * .85 = 51... so STILL not back to the old 5 per.

A batch of 20... 120 * .85 = 102, so STILL not back to 5 per.

Which carrier are you building that has a base anything of 15?! I was basing my numbers off the archon...

Additionally, something with a former base of 15 would have a base of 17 after the change, not 18 because 15 * 1.1 = 16.5 rounded up to 17 mot 18

Lastly, they could (not saying they will but they could) leave the base at 16.5 to keep everything exactly the same, but this would add a TON of complexity and the UI would again be lying to the players so ... probably not...


Go back and read the post again.

They take 4, 5, 10 of things. The 4s don't change at the new release, but the 5s become 6 and the 10s become 11. To not have the 4s round down to 3, CCP made a rule to always round up. That means what will become 6s won't be able to round back down to 5s.

The batch of 3 thing in my post showed you need perfect and a batch of 3 to get the 11s back to 10s. 33 * .9 = 29.7 which rounds back up to 30.

But even a batch of 3 with perfect is not enough to get the 6s back to 5. 6 * 3 = 18. 18 * .9 = 16.2 which rounds up to 17, not 15. Even if at a fully opgraded outpost with another 5% reduction... 6 * 3 = 18. 18*.85 = 15.3 which still rounds up to 16, not the old 15 that would have been required for a batch of 3.