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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#841 - 2014-05-11 05:00:34 UTC
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
by this logic, eve-central shouldnt exist ... in fact they shouldnt even make the API available by that logic.


WHAT? You can use EVE Central to figure out where the enemy is building super capitals?

you were complaining about an out of game resource by which players can gain an advantage, so I listed another out of game resource that people use to gain an advantage.

Also, IIRC you can use the API to see how many NPCs/Ships/Pods have been killed recently thus telling you where people are ratting etc. This would also give you a game changing advantage from an out of game resource...


Actually, my statement was specific to being able to identify where enemy are building super capitals. Never did I make a generic comment that you shuold not be able to gain ANY information from out of game tools.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#842 - 2014-05-11 06:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
Sigras wrote:

ME 9 is all that's required to get a perfect archon, and ME 9 only takes 28 months. I understand that 28 months is quite a bit more than the 16 it took to get perfect before, but getting a perfect archon BPO should not be an easy thing...


But it should be twice harder, or rather, twice longer than before? Why is inflicting capital crime punishment on the players a good thing for the game? Are we serving criminal sentences by playing EVE? How does it make it more diverse and dynamic to have twice as higher research times than before? Was that fun? It was pretty darn slow going before, but it needs to go even slower? I don't get this reasoning.

What have we done? Or what has a new player done (or not done), that you have to sentence them to an even longer research time than before?

Let's have some real numbers here. Some have estimated it will take 5 years to research a carrier. I'm not even going to use the ME level. I'm just going to take that figure, 5 years.

In Canada, under Criminal Section 266, the crime of Assault, carries with it a maximum penalty of 5 years in prison.

But we want to make researching a blueprint in take EVE take longer, because it has to be hard.

Researching that blueprint is meant to be hard, in fact it should be so hard that these 5 years we're giving you are generous. Relative to what, jail time?

Please people, use some reason and common sense. We are playing a game here. We are not serving time for crimes we did not commit. Games are meant to be fun. Time mechanics do not make a game hard, but let's not open that can of worms.

Let's look at another figure, which is a medium time frame to some numbers for research that has been tossed around on these forums using CCP's tables from the blog, for capital ships. If you want to correct me, I don't care. In fact, I bet it isn't even the top end.

10 years. Let's spell it out, ten, years. Ten Years.

In Canada, under Criminal Code Section 266, you can spend a maximum of 10 years in prison for the crime of, Assault causing bodily harm or with weapon.

Assault with a deadly weapon, or researching your capital blueprint, hmm, which would you pick because these things pretty much take the same amount of time. Therefore, it stands to conclude that they should be similar.

But nooo, 10 years for researching a Capital Ship BPO, is just simply not enough. It should take even LONGER, because it's clearly not hard enough to achieve this in game. It should take, Twenty-Seven Years, "haha, good luck maxing that out", because it should be HARDER! Really hard!

A capital blueprint in a game, to research, should take the amount of time you can expect to serve for Manslaughter, Second or Third Degree Murder?

CCP, why? Why are you doing this to the game?
Take a step back, and just re-asses things for a second. Take a breather, away from your no doubt, stressful jobs. We love you, we love your effort and passion that you put into the game, but this is the wrong way to apply changes.

Walking away from your computer and letting something research for years on end is not hard. It's just simply insane.


And yes, Sigras, the times are not for total research, but individual ME levels, which means you have to add them up to get the real totals. If they are not, someone please correct me, but even if they are not, the above figures still apply.

"Research times will follow essentially the same curve as skills" -- the dev blog. Just like when you train a skill to 3, training it to 4, takes nothing into account of how much you have trained that skill in the past, it is a new level and it will take x amount of time to reach it. Notice the word multiplying used immediately after in the dev blog.

"blueprint "ranks" multiplying the research times for more advanced blueprints."

Of course, I would love to be wrong, but at this point.. I think those are the figures we are looking at.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#843 - 2014-05-11 07:43:43 UTC
Chill out. No one had perfect titans before, no one will now.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#844 - 2014-05-11 08:21:25 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Chill out. No one had perfect titans before, no one will now.


I wonder...

And this is the other side of the coin.

You know for sure that some BPO owners, one of our crazier ones who bothered to research one to crazy amounts, won't have that BPO minted to perfect soon?

We don't have any now, and we won't have any made during the new system. But we might see some on June 3rd.

Well, that's it from me, I think CCP have their hands full with this one, I still trust them to work it out. Even after the patch goes live.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#845 - 2014-05-11 11:15:37 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
Well, that's it from me, I think CCP have their hands full with this one, I still trust them to work it out. Even after the patch goes live.

Another person that must be new around here... "CCP ... to work it out."

Similar to the complaints about POS and sov, CCP will ~eventually~ work it out. So if you like perfection in your blueprints, just be prepared to be subscribed for years. CCP will continue to dangle carrots in front of the masses: "five year plans, player built star gates, unknown areas - just you wait and see!" and move onward to the next shiny. Add some excuses of the code being too old and unknown mixed with fan fest visuals of "we would love to do this", as long as players shrug and accept it, CCP will continue their path of caution instead of their early days of risk takers. As a bitter vet, rarely have I seen CCP add something to the game and then work the kinks out right away. Only after months to years later do we see a possible "fix". And the past few years, their "fixes" have been reducing things to the lowest common denominator.

"Ummm, ME and PE are too hard for new players to figure out so we're revamping them into a convoluted form and crunching everything into a cookie cutter form. But at the moment, we're not sure how this will work out with those who were too smart to figure out the old system and work it to their advantage."

But hey, just wait - things will get better "Soon!". "Just keep paying monthly until we stumble across the answer by accident."
Danastar
Balkan Kings
Goonswarm Federation
#846 - 2014-05-11 12:36:04 UTC
Hmm speaking about titan bpos I have a question. I did read all the blue posts and didn't see any confirmation so I am asking.

If I have a titan bpo at ME3, PE1 and put it on research for ME4 prior to the exp, what ME is it going to be when it is finished? As far as i read it should be ME 8% but still will be greatfull if a dev can comfirm that.

If I start the ME job from a station but using a pos lab what will happen to the bpo when the exp arrives. I've read that it will be left in the station but will it keep the lab time bonus, or new time will be calculated as bpo is no longer using pos lab. Another thing about the time issue - will it keep the old total time (in this case me3 to me4 that is about 4 months) or it will get a new time accordingly (me 7% to me 8% which is if i remember correct about 3 years)?

What will happen if the pos is removed or destroyed, in other word is the bpo going to be linked to the pos somehow or not. Cause if it is I'd rather start it on a station at first place.

Thank You
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#847 - 2014-05-11 12:54:43 UTC
Danastar wrote:

If I start the ME job from a station but using a pos lab what will happen to the bpo when the exp arrives. I've read that it will be left in the station but will it keep the lab time bonus, or new time will be calculated as bpo is no longer using pos lab. Another thing about the time issue - will it keep the old total time (in this case me3 to me4 that is about 4 months) or it will get a new time accordingly (me 7% to me 8% which is if i remember correct about 3 years)?

What will happen if the pos is removed or destroyed, in other word is the bpo going to be linked to the pos somehow or not. Cause if it is I'd rather start it on a station at first place.

Thank You


I think they are intentionally not answering the questions about what it will some out as. I'm sure people are buying up BPOs and putting them in to research to ME 10 so that they can get the big round up, expecting the BPO to be perfect with a fraction of the time of what everyone else will face after the big round up.

It is EVE, so even though it is right there in the EULA "Thou Shalt not Exploit" EVERYONE does, as there seems to be little to no punishment for it.

I doubt their going to implement a bunch of code to adjust end times of running research. That is all that is stored in the server. The server doesn't track how far you have gone. It only tracks the end time.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#848 - 2014-05-11 13:04:43 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
It is EVE, so even though it is right there in the EULA "Thou Shalt not Exploit" EVERYONE does, as there seems to be little to no punishment for it.

utilising public information is not an exploit.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#849 - 2014-05-11 13:07:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I get 2.7 years to go from 0-9, but my miscalculation came from a wrong assumption.

I thought the numbers posted in the blog were the cumulative time to get to that level, IE on a rank 1 BPO I figured it would take 1 day to go from 0-9 and 12 hours to go from 0-8. Is it states somewhere that those numbers are per level?



Oh, interesting point. You are correct. The dev blog doesn't say if the listed times are from 0 or from prior level.

It does say they step up like skills, implying the times shown are from 0, not from prior level.

My bad. So, base time from 8 to 9 for a capital is (107700 - 46255) & 854 = 5766030 seconds = 14K hours = 588.6 days = 1.6 years. OR, something around a year-ish if you can trim off about 30% with skills and POS (if you trust the POS will be there for the whole year).

9 to 10 is 126.6 million seconds, 35K hour, 1465 days, 4 years, unadjusted. Are you going to trust a POS will be in place for 4 years to do that research there?

Compare to racing out and buying one right now, putting it in a remote research lab right now, and in a short 1 year adjusted-ish, having a perfect BPO.


There is so much to hate about this June release, that if I'd not already unsubbed all my accounts, I'd definitely be unsubbing my accounts.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#850 - 2014-05-11 13:19:01 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
It is EVE, so even though it is right there in the EULA "Thou Shalt not Exploit" EVERYONE does, as there seems to be little to no punishment for it.

utilising public information is not an exploit.


I wasn't talking about using public information. I was talking about buying up BPOs after this devblog was released, and putting them in to research to ME 10, thereby getting to participate in the "big round up".
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#851 - 2014-05-11 13:42:40 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
It is EVE, so even though it is right there in the EULA "Thou Shalt not Exploit" EVERYONE does, as there seems to be little to no punishment for it.

utilising public information is not an exploit.


I wasn't talking about using public information. I was talking about buying up BPOs after this devblog was released, and putting them in to research to ME 10, thereby getting to participate in the "big round up".

utilising public information, yes.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#852 - 2014-05-11 14:22:20 UTC
not only is taking action now to benefit from announced patch changes not an exploit, ccp devs routinely advise people to do it

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#853 - 2014-05-11 15:26:01 UTC
Was Greyscale just in way over his head?

Wanting to see if I could identify pattern in the madness, I went looking for other dev blogs from Greyscale to see what else he may have been designing in the past.

I had to go back a couple years, but what I found was "tutorial rework", safeties and safe-logoff and removal of corp hangers from ships replaced with fleet hanger.

Maybe he just didn't have a clue....
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#854 - 2014-05-11 19:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I get 2.7 years to go from 0-9, but my miscalculation came from a wrong assumption.

I thought the numbers posted in the blog were the cumulative time to get to that level, IE on a rank 1 BPO I figured it would take 1 day to go from 0-9 and 12 hours to go from 0-8. Is it states somewhere that those numbers are per level?



Oh, interesting point. You are correct. The dev blog doesn't say if the listed times are from 0 or from prior level.

It does say they step up like skills, implying the times shown are from 0, not from prior level.


Look at the dev blog again. They are not giving an estimation, like when you look at the requirements for flying a ship, and it says something like 6d 10h 13m.

They are giving you the actual steps. You have to add them up. That's why they put in a table format. Level 1 will take x. Level 2 will take x. And so on. (So from that table, T1 ammo would take around 5d to perfect, which is still reasonable, it's only when it gets jacked up that those numbers really start to fly.)

There have been numbers flying from both camps, that have assumed both added and total. Why do you think they haven't come in here and clarified this? You would think they had noticed. "Oh, by the way guys, those two years aren't a total, they are the total to get from 8 to 9."

The forums would have erupted.

Since the times have been one of the major issues of contention, they would have loved to alleviate some of that concern but they have not clarified. So you have to assume the latter.

Again, I would love to be wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I think they gave us the steps and what they cost to train, just like skills.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#855 - 2014-05-11 20:06:46 UTC
Personal attack removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
#856 - 2014-05-11 20:37:22 UTC
There was a mention on updating the max number of runs on capital component blueprints. Is this still being considered? If so, what order of magnitude can we expect? 10, 100, 1000 runs per bpc?
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#857 - 2014-05-12 05:14:13 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Was Greyscale just in way over his head?

Wanting to see if I could identify pattern in the madness, I went looking for other dev blogs from Greyscale to see what else he may have been designing in the past.

I had to go back a couple years, but what I found was "tutorial rework", safeties and safe-logoff and removal of corp hangers from ships replaced with fleet hanger.

Maybe he just didn't have a clue....

devs don't work in seclusion.
Sigras
Conglomo
#858 - 2014-05-12 07:57:12 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
Sigras wrote:

ME 9 is all that's required to get a perfect archon, and ME 9 only takes 28 months. I understand that 28 months is quite a bit more than the 16 it took to get perfect before, but getting a perfect archon BPO should not be an easy thing...


But it should be twice harder, or rather, twice longer than before? Why is inflicting capital crime punishment on the players a good thing for the game? Are we serving criminal sentences by playing EVE? How does it make it more diverse and dynamic to have twice as higher research times than before? Was that fun? It was pretty darn slow going before, but it needs to go even slower? I don't get this reasoning.

What have we done? Or what has a new player done (or not done), that you have to sentence them to an even longer research time than before?

Let's have some real numbers here. Some have estimated it will take 5 years to research a carrier. I'm not even going to use the ME level. I'm just going to take that figure, 5 years.

In Canada, under Criminal Section 266, the crime of Assault, carries with it a maximum penalty of 5 years in prison.

But we want to make researching a blueprint in take EVE take longer, because it has to be hard.

Researching that blueprint is meant to be hard, in fact it should be so hard that these 5 years we're giving you are generous. Relative to what, jail time?

Please people, use some reason and common sense. We are playing a game here. We are not serving time for crimes we did not commit. Games are meant to be fun. Time mechanics do not make a game hard, but let's not open that can of worms.

Let's look at another figure, which is a medium time frame to some numbers for research that has been tossed around on these forums using CCP's tables from the blog, for capital ships. If you want to correct me, I don't care. In fact, I bet it isn't even the top end.

10 years. Let's spell it out, ten, years. Ten Years.

In Canada, under Criminal Code Section 266, you can spend a maximum of 10 years in prison for the crime of, Assault causing bodily harm or with weapon.

Assault with a deadly weapon, or researching your capital blueprint, hmm, which would you pick because these things pretty much take the same amount of time. Therefore, it stands to conclude that they should be similar.

But nooo, 10 years for researching a Capital Ship BPO, is just simply not enough. It should take even LONGER, because it's clearly not hard enough to achieve this in game. It should take, Twenty-Seven Years, "haha, good luck maxing that out", because it should be HARDER! Really hard!

A capital blueprint in a game, to research, should take the amount of time you can expect to serve for Manslaughter, Second or Third Degree Murder?

CCP, why? Why are you doing this to the game?
Take a step back, and just re-asses things for a second. Take a breather, away from your no doubt, stressful jobs. We love you, we love your effort and passion that you put into the game, but this is the wrong way to apply changes.

Walking away from your computer and letting something research for years on end is not hard. It's just simply insane.


And yes, Sigras, the times are not for total research, but individual ME levels, which means you have to add them up to get the real totals. If they are not, someone please correct me, but even if they are not, the above figures still apply.

"Research times will follow essentially the same curve as skills" -- the dev blog. Just like when you train a skill to 3, training it to 4, takes nothing into account of how much you have trained that skill in the past, it is a new level and it will take x amount of time to reach it. Notice the word multiplying used immediately after in the dev blog.

"blueprint "ranks" multiplying the research times for more advanced blueprints."

Of course, I would love to be wrong, but at this point.. I think those are the figures we are looking at.

You would have a point if the game required your character to actively research the BPO, but it's just something you can passively do in the background while your character does other stuff.

See when you're sent to jail, youre required to actively be in jail for that time, it isnt just something you can do in the background as you go out and work your job and live your life.

You know what does work passively in the background while you live your life? Investment funds ... gee, its almost as though researching BPOs is an investment.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#859 - 2014-05-12 08:36:13 UTC
Sigras wrote:

You would have a point if the game required your character to actively research the BPO, but it's just something you can passively do in the background while your character does other stuff.

See when you're sent to jail, youre required to actively be in jail for that time, it isnt just something you can do in the background as you go out and work your job and live your life.

You know what does work passively in the background while you live your life? Investment funds ... gee, its almost as though researching BPOs is an investment.


Yeah, that would work out all well and fine, if I was planning my retirement. :P

And you would be locking out your science lines, so in effect you may not be in jail, but your character is technically locked from whatever skill slots you assigned to that research for a very long time.

I would like to play the game more actively, not wait to play it, when I'm say, 80.

In real life, you can have an unlimited amount of investment funds, so it's a little unfair to apply that to one character in a game, that only has several skill slots. And those skill slots were designed to be used a little more pro-actively, than what they are proposing now. Unless they want to get rid of those slots all-together too? Wouldn't that be a new wrinkle.

Even if you could, I don't know why you would. I pay to play this game, not have it passively play in the background for me.

Exaggerated figures and all. I think you get the overall gist of my problems with this new system.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#860 - 2014-05-12 13:36:44 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Researching, The Future Dev Blog wrote:
currently the trend is that T1 blueprints take 20x longer to copy than to build
If my math is correct below, your statement appears to be misleading. Do you have any examples of this trend you speak of, other than maybe doomsday devices?

Item -- Copy Time -- Build time -- Copy to Build Ratio
Prototype Cloaking Device I -- 3 Hours, 20 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 46 Minutes -- ~1.8868
Moros -- 44 Days, 10 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 11 Days, 20 Hours, 26 Minutes -- ~ 3.7493
Condor -- 1 Hour, 40 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 20 Minutes -- 1.25
Large Shield Extender I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125
Mega Beam Laser I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125
Judgement -- 31 Days, 6 Hours -- 1 Day, 16 Hours -- 18.75
Scourge Torpedo -- 6 Seconds -- 4 Minutes -- 0.025
Avatar -- 177 Days, 18 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 47 Days, 9 Hours, 46 Minutes -- ~3.75
Celestis -- 6 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2.5
Tempest -- 15 Hours -- 4 Hours -- 3.75
Catalyst -- 3 Hours, 45 Minutes -- 2 Hours -- 1.875
Cap Booster 400 -- 2 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- ~0.0208
Core Scanner Probe I -- 3 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- 0.03125
Bump for reply from CCP Greyscale or CCP Phantom.
Sure, maybe you guys are busy or just are avoiding this question. The impression I get from CCP not answering this is there is no trend as CCP Greyscale states. Thus, changing the research system because of a bullshit reason.

I would give a **** if you wanted to say you were changing the research system because there needs to be more isk sinks, more difficult to conduct research, or other valid reason/whatever. As it stands, CCP is not giving any valid reason. Thus CCP is lying. Just own up to you are trying to bullshit us and are lying about this, or say what the reason is.