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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-05-09 14:27:18 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
personally i don't have a problem with warp core stabs, it's a legit tactic like everything else in eve. But i have 2 "issues". First my minor beef with stabs is that their design leans too far into the realm of survivability than a practical combat module, if they gave a warp speed or acceleration bonus i would be happy with what they are then. The second part is that these are supposed to be "combat sites" and not isk printing sites. I would like to see it where there is more of a combat focus on these sites and make it harder for less combat fits to do things.

Some of the GMVA folks have proposed adding a straight DPS penalty to WCS, which would seriously gimp it's use in combat fits. It's an interesting proposal, and it wouldn't take much of a penalty to make mutlistabbed fits unviable for most combat and PvE situations.

I'm torn on plexing income, to be honest. It's an important part of keeping our pilots out in the warzone trolling for fights, and keeping them in combat ships along the way. Not being forced to take time out to exclusively PvE in order to sustain frigate / dessie losses means we can be out and about killing a much larger percentage of the time.

It sucks that FW is an ATM for far too many people who aren't dedicated to the spirit of chaos and combat in the warzones, but solving that commitment problem is a far more difficult task.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#62 - 2014-05-09 14:27:42 UTC
How about doing something useful like:

"Sovereignty"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#63 - 2014-05-09 14:27:55 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
All hail Fozzy!

I like those changes.

There is another thing that was mentioned at last year's FW roundtable.

Someone asked for plex accel gates (or capture beacons) to trigger a suspect timer, so that participants don't have to be worried about their sec status in there. How do you feel about this suggestion now?

Now we want the whole cake and to eat it too.

If your a member of FW you don't have to worry about sec status when engaging FW members in Pvp

If your not a member of FW but want to hunt FW players - Live with bad sec status.

Better would be if FW members could shoot neutrals without losing sec status.


Plexes will never be "Good Pvp hunting grounds" as long as 10 frigates can warpin on 1 - The 1 is always going to warp out or move off and cloak.
Limit how many can enter a plex at any given time, less will run.
Novice or small plex can have a maximum of 1 ship to capture the plex. A 2nd may enter to fight for the plex at which time the gate is locked and the plex bubbled until only 1 ship remains.
Scale it up for larger plexes, it may just encourage more fights for plexes.

1 on 1 Pvp is hard to find, FW plexes could be the ideal place for it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#64 - 2014-05-09 14:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
As I posted in the other (non-FW) thread:

Petrus Blackshell wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I just got back to work after a bit of post-fanfest death plague recovery. I'm working through a bunch of threads to catch up on what was discussed over Fanfest and the last two days.

I've now caught up on this thread and I'm glad to see how many players are excited by the concept of this ship.

Quick note: I'm not worried about the Prospect being used for afk FW farming since as of Kronos it will be impossible to cloak within capture range of a FW button.

Great change, but does not go far enough. Please continue to make FW mean "Factional Warfare", not "Farming World".

To those who think PvPers have no right to be upset about FW farming: FW is advertised and intended as a semi-organized system for sovereignty-like PvP, with incentives for smaller fights in smaller ships. It's an admirable vision.

It is not what actually happens, though. Instead, who are the biggest "participants"? People who do not fight, and often do not even have the ability to fight. How are they so active in this "war"? By orbiting buttons and running away. Cloaks are part of this, but not the entirety. As long as FW pays out in full to people who refuse to fight, the problem will persist -- regardless of modules or ships.

So I'm just butthurt and like "telling people how to play" right? Wrong. These "farm and run" mechanics are actively hurting PvP in faction warfare. The prevalence of farmers makes looking for a fight a prolonged sequence of chasing red herring after red herring. PvPers use (or, want to use) the complexes as fight "arenas", nexuses for finding fights. We most often have no interest in boring ourselves to death capturing the complex, or in chasing after farmers.

When I'm in a Rifter and see another Rifter on d-scan in a plex, I get excited for a good fight. I warp there, activate the gate, get ready... and he runs away. I go to the next system. Same thing happens there. Next system, again. Then again several times more. This experience makes fighting in a system indended to promote fighting extremely frustrating. Yes, I can fit more scrams to catch farmers, but why would I want to? Those fights are not fun, and using that kind of fit makes many regular fights impossible too. Again, the problem is not that farmers are hard to catch. The problem is that they are there in the first place, providing the illusion of an upcoming fight, leading to an extremely unsatisfying rollercoaster of unfulfilled adrenaline and excitement.

On top of that, "farming" taking center stage in a "warfare" system over "fighting" is just misleading and wrong.

Some hypothetical parallels:

  • You spend time scanning down an exploration complex, fit for it, enter it... and the rats all leave.
  • You're looking for a fairly rare item, travel to a station where it's available, try to buy it from the market... and the market says it's not there.
  • You go to a mall and there are multiple stores saying "Half Life 3 now in stock!" When you enter and try to find it on the shelves, it's not there.
  • Allied troops land at the D-Day invasion, but the German troops are nowhere to be found. The Germans later win the battle because they crept back in and planted a small plastic flag in the ground, then ran away again.


These are not fun mechanics. It's not cloaks or warp core stabilizers or farmers that are broken. It's the whole system. Please rethink it, CCP.

A step in the right direction: the capture meter degrades to "neutral" when nobody from either side is involved, and degrades at a higher rate when there are non-FW people present.


While there is nothing negative about your proposed changes, CCP Fozzie, they still do not address the inherent anti-PvP environment that complex-farming generates. Disabling cloaks is insufficient, and even hampers those who would use stuff like Asteros for hunting. Why?

Quote:
Look at me, I'm A Lame Farmer. I sit at 29 km from the button in the direction opposite the warp-in, and farm. Oh hey look, Petrus Blackshell is entering my PLEX. Silly Petrus, looking for PvP in a PvE system. I'm going to pulse my MWD/AB and cloak once i get to 31 km from the button. It's not like he can do anything to me, because he warps in at 40 km from me. I have plenty of time to get away.


Risk / Reward / Effort of farming? Still no risk, next to no effort, and a ton of reward. Farming will still happen, and PvP will still be stunted by the continual frustration of chasing after fights that end up being nothing more than bots or bot-like players.

I have stopped recommending FW as a solo/smallgang PvP hotspot, and am searching for new hunting grounds for myself. Instead to anyone interested in FW, I mention that while theoretically PvP is possible and encouraged, in reality 90% of the time you end up chasing cloaked and warp-stabbed ships that are "winning the war" by running away. At least you can get filthy rich off this "PvP" mechanic.


Edit: On second thought, the higher tank of plex rats, plus their respawn, may actually decrease farming. Or the low damage will encourage plex-blitzing in bombers, which is already occurring.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-05-09 14:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyjil Lizaru
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.


I prefer the proposal to give WCS a significant negative damage modifier, as expressed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342571&find=unread

and here: http://sandciderandspaceships.blogspot.com/2014/02/stab-stabs.html

Removing cloaks from plexes actually helps farmers by impeding those that hunt them.

I don't like the various timer reset ideas as much, but I wouldn't mind them either.

Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Thorin Matarielle
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#66 - 2014-05-09 14:46:22 UTC
Farmers will sit at 29k and as soon as they see someone on DS they will pull range at 30,1k and will cloak. Awesome. :)

Cloaky ships (Astero, Stratios, Bombers and Recons) should still be able to cloak in plexes... I am personally using my Astero to catch these folks.

I dont see anything about Warp Core Stabs. o.O Ships fitted with these should not be able to enter into FW plexes. These are dedicated combat sites so the acc.gate should refuse the request of warp the ship. Like when u trying to enter into a novice with a destroyer. I think its a shame when I have to fit True Sansha scrams to catch the farmer incursus in the FW plex.
Vadeim Rizen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-05-09 14:48:42 UTC
I think the best solution to the 'problem' here is to just remove faction war all together. Then people dont have to worry about things like plexes, or other people making isk, or ganking t1 fit condors.

Lots of qq about 'farmers'... who cares. FW has so many benefits that aren't available to the rest of eve, hence many other players of eve use fw to make a little bit of isk. if PVP is what you want then dont spend your time chasing the t1 fit frigs in plexes.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-05-09 14:48:50 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
How about doing something useful like:

"Sovereignty"

Dear sweet zombie jeebus no. We're here for FW, not nullsec-lite.

Screw that noise with a power drill.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-05-09 14:50:41 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
if PVP is what you want then dont spend your time chasing the t1 fit frigs in plexes.

I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleague from the pirate side of the house.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#70 - 2014-05-09 14:52:36 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
if PVP is what you want then dont spend your time chasing the t1 fit frigs in plexes.

I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleague from the pirate side of the house.

How can I distinguish between a farmer and a target worthy of PvP-chase? This is especially in light of having seen not just farming frigates, but also destroyers and cruisers lately.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#71 - 2014-05-09 14:53:17 UTC
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:
[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.


Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Join a FW corp or alliance, then your sec status only drops when fighting non members of FW.

I don't see why non FW members think they are entitled to Pvp free of penalties for fighting in plexes - It's not like it has anything to do with FW. Your only there for lowsec Pvp. Which has sec status penalties attached to it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-05-09 14:53:22 UTC
Please make that ships with stabs (including built-in, like in ventures) can't rotate timers.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#73 - 2014-05-09 14:59:19 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
if PVP is what you want then dont spend your time chasing the t1 fit frigs in plexes.

I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleague from the pirate side of the house.

How can I distinguish between a farmer and a target worthy of PvP-chase? This is especially in light of having seen not just farming frigates, but also destroyers and cruisers lately.

A little clue - when I'm in a plex and see 10 neuts appear on Dcan - I align.
When I'm in a plex and 1 neutral appears on Dscan, I'll sit on the warpin and wait for him.

Doesn't always work out, as often, the one that enters has 9 friends waiting outside Dscan range until he gets you tackled.

There is nothing quite like being ready for a bit of a fight, to find out (too late usually) it isn't going to be a fight but simple killmail padding for the local neut gang.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#74 - 2014-05-09 15:03:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?

Yes, these large outposts are ungated just like the current large plexes

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates? Blink

We're aware of the increase in potential flip speed. However with the respawning and harder repping NPCs slowing capture rates of each plex we think the overall change will be acceptable. We'll be keeping an eye on feedback of course and tweaking respawn rates would be very easy if needed.


The after downtime spawning advantage needs to be addressed with these changes too. Can you put a delay in the spawning of the plexes after down time?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#75 - 2014-05-09 15:06:44 UTC
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.


I prefer the proposal to give WCS a significant negative damage modifier, as expressed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342571&find=unread

and here: http://sandciderandspaceships.blogspot.com/2014/02/stab-stabs.html

Removing cloaks from plexes actually helps farmers by impeding those that hunt them.

I don't like the various timer reset ideas as much, but I wouldn't mind them either.

Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.


I would argue that they should gimp your tank, not your dps output.

You don't fit warp stabs, generally, if you are intending to fight. You fit them when you are intending on not fighting. So gimping the scan res, dps, whatever offensive ability of the ship fitting them is functionally pointless. It's a theoretical penalty, not a realistic one.

Gimping the tank of the ship fitting them? Now that is a reasonable tradeoff. If you can't tackle them, you should be able to burn them down instead.

As for sec status, no one, anywhere, should lose sec status for shooting a militia member. It's not like it's a deterrent anyway, just an extra pain in the ass to deal with.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#76 - 2014-05-09 15:17:09 UTC
There are only two things that will reduce farmers:

More difficult plexes and/or a lower LP payout for plexes.

Stabs and cloaks are just chaff for this discussion. Fozzie's proposals make the plexes more difficult. Is it enough? We'll have to wait and see. Personally I would love to jettison the tier system and pay everyone a flat LP rate for FW kills and plexes. (Tier 2?). This, combine with the changes proposed, would cut down on farming so it isn't the acid drip it currently is. There would still be enough to grease the wheels. Market scarcity rather then tier level would be the driving factor though.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#77 - 2014-05-09 15:23:57 UTC
Thank you for trying to bring some sort of change to balance out the risk/reward of evasion fits vs pvp fits.

Would it be easy to get rid of the links between the militia's (minm+gal, amarr+caldari)? It would get rid of cross plexing nonsense and "overview" issues that are utilized to gank FW newbies (he's purple but he's shooting me!).

JUSTK is recruiting
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-05-09 15:24:59 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Personally I would love to jettison the tier system and pay everyone a flat LP rate for FW kills and plexes. (Tier 2?). This, combine with the changes proposed, would cut down on farming so it isn't the acid drip it currently is. There would still be enough to grease the wheels. Market scarcity rather then tier level would be the driving factor though.

I'd really like for LP payouts for plexes to be more constant, and Tier 2 is a nice middle ground that gives a good isk/hr without going overboard. There was actually discussion during the roundtable about setting PvP LP payouts at a higher level on average, but per CCP that level is hard capped at the Tier 5 payout due to it's potential to be exploited. Having Tier 2 plexing payouts plus tier 4/5 PvP payouts as standard would go a long way to stabilizing FW income.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-05-09 15:26:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:



Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Join a FW corp or alliance, then your sec status only drops when fighting non members of FW.

I don't see why non FW members think they are entitled to Pvp free of penalties for fighting in plexes - It's not like it has anything to do with FW. Your only there for lowsec Pvp. Which has sec status penalties attached to it.



Ummm... I *am* in FW, and I wonder what the logic is for my losing sec status while fighting pirates in a FW plex.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-05-09 15:26:18 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Would it be easy to get rid of the links between the militia's (minm+gal, amarr+caldari)? It would get rid of cross plexing nonsense and "overview" issues that are utilized to gank FW newbies (he's purple but he's shooting me!).

This was also brought up at the roundtable and had pretty much universal support from the players that were there. They've got the lore driver to do it, so I'd expect something like this to roll out before the end of the year unless there's some serious code / engineering block.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."