These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

The Rattlesnake - DPS Buff vs Immersion Nerf - The Right Design ?

Author
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#1 - 2014-05-09 14:08:21 UTC
Welcome Rattlesnake and Drone-boat lovers, design interested parties and balance fetishists.

First up - this is not about number crunching and evaluation of the buff, this is about the immersion factor, the gameplay and associated role of our beloved ship - the Rattlesnake.

“About a year ago I undocked for the first time into the limitless space of New Eden. After just a few days I flirted heavily with Drones and got quite fond of the mechanisms of missile-warfare, all the while searching for a long term goal to aim for higher tier ships. I searched high and low finding decent drone and missile ships (by stats and values), but none to my liking. I don't fly ugly ships even if ... well, I don't fly ugly ships ... period!
An extensive search let me to the Rattlesnake which came quite close to my technical desires and had an acceptable look. Over time I grew quite fond of it and fell deeply in love with the ship and its performance, which for me lies in the role, the look and not in its numerical values. Though I have flown and are flying other ships due to fleet doctrine, whenever I get the choice I grab my Ratter and head out into the unknown. Even though I never felt that the Rattlesnake performed worse then other ships or unsatisfying on its own merits, I could not deny that I wasn't a bit joyful when I heard the news about a little buff. But reading the posts and looking at the actual values I fear my Rattlesnake will be less awesome to play no matter the paper DPS increase and my disappointment with the insight the designers seem to have into Rattlesnake pilots lead me to write this post.”


Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z479/Pogumogc/20130820211321_zpsc1ab95c9.png
Captain Malcom Reynolds



Rattlesnake Design and Changes


My beef with the coming changes is derived from different aspects regarding balance, immersion, playability, its perception in the universe and of course its awesomeness piloting it around. All those issues make it hard to organize and categorize them, so bear with me.


The Changes

The Rattlesnake will get an extra launcher slot making it a 5/6 instead of a 4/6

My first objection is, that the 2 support slots are dearly needed for Drone Link Augmentors to gain 100km + drone control range, without those an MJD and most sniping fits will be useless. I feel forced or obligated to add a 5th launcher, just for the sake of sheet dps, even though I can resist, most won't - how sad.
Further more with the added bonus to missile damage it will make other supposedly pure missile boats like the Navy Scorpion look obsolete.



The Rattlesnake will get a 10% damage bonus to kinetic and thermal damage (instead of..)

This is one of the heftiest missile buffs I have seen in a long time and with the added launcher will make it one of the best missile BS out there something that is overkill regarding balance. Especially since the Ratter has less launchers then all the rest and can save not only on missile types but also base ammunition itself due to reduced on shot salvos. This is combined with the drone ship role and its bonuses totally overdone.


The Rattlesnake will get the 'Hero Drone' bonus of 275% to to damage and hit points for heavy and sentry drones and a reduction in bandwidth to 50 mbit (and lose the light and medium drone bonuses)

This is one of the worst changes that kills immersion and playability totally for me, especially if I consider the awesome gift of the Geckos. The Rattlesnake is a 'Drone Ship' and yet, even though it has multiple times the mass of other cruisers and battle cruisers and their capabilities (game lore) it can field only 1 Gecko ... 1 Drone .. WOW ¨¨!!!
The Rattlesnake is many times larger then the Stratios, which can field 4 sentries, and now I can field only 2, makes me feel real mighty (not)! No matter the stats, this is about immersion and playability. I lose the light and medium drone bonuses and now the mighty battleship is weaker then a Skiff or Procurer which even can field 5 medium drones with a 50% bonus of former battleships.




Fazit - If I have to fit one ship completely to essentially command 1 other ship (in case of the Gecko) the I can just skip the intermediary and fly that ship itself. I want to feel awesome in my ship and expect a BS of any type to have more or at least equal capabilities of launching drones, then a frigate, cruiser and anything in between, especially if it is MY ROLE.

The Rattlesnake was a Pirate Faction Drone Ship with missile support, now its a Pirate Faction Missile Boat with some drone support. And by title comparison them the Procurer is now a Faction Drone Battlecrusier with mining support. So much for roles.

Regarding the 275% as a value itself, I always found high values and especially multipliers a sign of bad game design. It literally says, look: this is what we wanted to achieve in values, but we don't really know how to do it properly and suitable to the game, its mechanics and lore.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#2 - 2014-05-09 14:10:44 UTC
Productive suggestions

But I don't want to just complain, I would not do so if I would not have an idea how to go about it. I will probably have lost most readers by now, but I will try anyway.


Missiles

First, I would keep the 4/6 setup for said reasons and add a +25% launcher rate of fire as a role bonus. It basically raises the 4 launchers to 5 but increases missile consumption for dps or keeps it balanced regarding damage dealt.

Further more I would reduce the 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage to 5% per level, making it a bit better in those damage types (following the Guristas fashion/tradition), but not to powerful compared to other missile based faction battleships. Carrying all 4 types can still be valid. I would also move it to the Caldari Side - Never seen gallente missiles°°.


Drones

I do understand the concept of hero drones and the desire to cut on drone numbers due to the server load. To start with the most prominent pirate faction drone battleship is the wrong choice, yet not unthinkable, so I am willing for some compromises here. And I do get the hint to Valkyrie with the Gecko - Hero Drone - Guristas triangle, so bear with me.

Change the bandwidth need for Geckos to 45 mbit !!!

First I would raise the bandwidth to 90mbit which will allow the launch of 3 normal heavies and sentries cutting down the number still from 5 to 3. It will also allow for the Rattlesnake to launch 2 Gecko drones. Now you got your hero drones (yes, plural).

The Rattlesnake will get a 150% drone damage and hitpoint role bonus to heavy and sentry drones which is even a little less then the former total dps.

The Rattlesnake will get a 7,5% damage and hitpoint bonus for light and medium drones per level from the Gallente side. This will balance out the injustice that has been done to it.

The drone bay will be raised to 250m3, the Rattlesnake could carry 3 flights of 5 sentries and 1 flight of 5 lights before and can do so again with flights of 3s for heavies/sentries and a single flight of 5 lights.
Drone bay size could also be determined bey the Gallente Battleship skill to give it more weight, like 175m3 base + 15m3 per level for example.

This way the intended buff does happen in a much more controlled and considerate fashion and this without interfering too much with the underlying idea/concept that seemingly preceded this change. As a pilot I would love to play with the choices of long distance Hero Snipers and missile support vs close range torpedo brawler with Hero drone support.


Thank you for your patience

Comments, criticism and tearing me a new one ... are more or less welcome .)



Extended Suggestion.


Should you ever consider Drone Interface modules and Rigs, here is a small take on it.

Drone Control Interface I
High Powered Slot, 60 CPU, 10 PG, Tech 1, Meta 1, +5% mbit
Drone Control Interface II
High Powered Slot, 70 CPU, 10 PG, Tech 2, Meta 5, +7,5% mbit
Drone Control Interface Rig I
Rig Slot, 200 cal, +10 mbit, -20% CPU
Drone Control Interface Rig II
Rig Slot, 250 cal, +15 mbit, -20% CPU

If these would be implemented, you can go for a 5/6 or even 6/6 launcher setup, because it will give the Rattlesnake the option to either make it a pure, unique and awesome drone boat or a decent missile boat with light drone support.

The End - I promise ,)
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#3 - 2014-05-09 14:19:18 UTC
There is already a thread to discuss rattlesnake changes and it is stickied.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4 - 2014-05-09 14:19:19 UTC
You're really missing the bonus to medium and light drones, aren't you?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-05-09 14:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
chaosgrimm wrote:
There is already a thread to discuss rattlesnake changes and it is stickied.


Reading though it is like poking yourself in the face with a powerdrill though. It's probably had more pages deleted than are left.


Edit: Splitting this out might be a good idea if it cuts the clutter in the sticky though.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#6 - 2014-05-09 14:45:22 UTC
There is already a thread for this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#7 - 2014-05-09 14:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
The hero drone concept has little to do with reducing server load.

The things you say are "immersion breaking" do not seem "immersion breaking" at all to me. I'd be down for it to get a bigger dronebay however. I liked having a variety of medium and light drones and that will be harder now.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2014-05-09 15:33:13 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I feel forced or obligated to add a 5th launcher, just for the sake of sheet dps, even though I can resist, most won't - how sad.


Insa

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:

The Rattlesnake will get a 10% damage bonus to kinetic and thermal damage (instead of..)

'This is one of the heftiest missile buffs I have seen in a long time and with the added launcher will make it one of the best missile BS out there something that is overkill regarding balance'.... 'This is combined with the drone ship role and its bonuses totally overdone'.


In pure missile dps it does less than a raven and phoon. Its the combination of both drones + missiles and then fitting damage mods for BOTH those weapon types that gives the rattler its DPS edge. Bearing in mind pirate battleships are designed for high damage, id say its balanced.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:

The Rattlesnake will get the 'Hero Drone' bonus of 275% to to damage and hit points for heavy and sentry drones and a reduction in bandwidth to 50 mbit (and lose the light and medium drone bonuses)

[i]This is one of the worst changes that kills immersion and playability totally for me, especially if I consider the awesome gift of the Geckos.


So instead of a mini carrier its a missile BS with a few escorts or a really mean escort. if u dnt like it, u can fly something else.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9 - 2014-05-09 15:58:32 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
The Changes

The Rattlesnake will get an extra launcher slot making it a 5/6 instead of a 4/6

My first objection is, that the 2 support slots are dearly needed for Drone Link Augmentors to gain 100km + drone control range, without those an MJD and most sniping fits will be useless. I feel forced or obligated to add a 5th launcher, just for the sake of sheet dps, even though I can resist, most won't - how sad.
Further more with the added bonus to missile damage it will make other supposedly pure missile boats like the Navy Scorpion look obsolete.


This is an odd objection. At worst, you simply prioritize drones over missiles and don't fit a fifth launcher. The extra hardpoint gives options, and in no way detracts from any other aspect of the ship. Think of this in the light of some of the Minmatar or Amarr designs that have more hardpoints for turrets & missiles combined than they have high slots, it's not about fitting every single launcher you can, but about having the option.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
The Rattlesnake will get a 10% damage bonus to kinetic and thermal damage (instead of..)

This is one of the heftiest missile buffs I have seen in a long time and with the added launcher will make it one of the best missile BS out there something that is overkill regarding balance. Especially since the Ratter has less launchers then all the rest and can save not only on missile types but also base ammunition itself due to reduced on shot salvos. This is combined with the drone ship role and its bonuses totally overdone.


It's a strong bonus, completely in keeping with the Caldari Kin only bonuses they get on some hulls. Gallente have also recently been reducing hardpoints in favor of oversized bonuses, such as on the redesign of the Hyperion. Your only real complaint seems to be that it's a missile damage bonus on a drone boat, but I would point you at the older designs of the Gallente Drone line, as well as the current destroyer and N.Dominix Guns+Dones concept. The bonus is stronger than on those hulls, but the idea is the same.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
The Rattlesnake will get the 'Hero Drone' bonus of 275% to to damage and hit points for heavy and sentry drones and a reduction in bandwidth to 50 mbit (and lose the light and medium drone bonuses)

This is one of the worst changes that kills immersion and playability totally for me, especially if I consider the awesome gift of the Geckos. The Rattlesnake is a 'Drone Ship' and yet, even though it has multiple times the mass of other cruisers and battle cruisers and their capabilities (game lore) it can field only 1 Gecko ... 1 Drone .. WOW ¨¨!!!
The Rattlesnake is many times larger then the Stratios, which can field 4 sentries, and now I can field only 2, makes me feel real mighty (not)! No matter the stats, this is about immersion and playability. I lose the light and medium drone bonuses and now the mighty battleship is weaker then a Skiff or Procurer which even can field 5 medium drones with a 50% bonus of former battleships.


The problem here is the magnitude of the bonus, not it's nature. 275% is simply break even with other battleship drone platforms at the cost of drone flexibility and resistance to disruption. There can be no doubt that both the Worm and Gila will be the best in weightclass drone platforms. They straight up do 60% more DPS than any other ships in their class with weightclass appropriate drones. Gila does lose out on large drones, but the mediums it gets put out almost the same DPS with much better application.

Some similar increase in power is warranted for the Rattlesnake drone system. The superdrone concept re-establishes the balance point for drones by removing flexibility, increasing vulnerability to disruption, and compensates with a 60% increase in performance. Even a slight upgrade to DPS, and the fully upgrade to HP would be acceptable, as this is the reverse of what happened on the frigate level. Gallente drone frigates get the HP boost, but not a damage boost--- so the HP boost of the superdrone bonus is slight (going from 7.5 effective drones to 8). some middle ground might be found too, but the current level of the superdrone bonus on the Rattlesnake is simply too low.

Geckos don't enter into it. They are outside the normal production chains and therefore outside normal balance. There may be a slight advantage to running one Gecko from the Rattlesnake instead of 2 and a spare large drone out of any other large drone platform, but its largely offset by the vulnerability of the drone weapon system when there is but a single drone to disrupt or kite.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Fazit - If I have to fit one ship completely to essentially command 1 other ship (in case of the Gecko) the I can just skip the intermediary and fly that ship itself. I want to feel awesome in my ship and expect a BS of any type to have more or at least equal capabilities of launching drones, then a frigate, cruiser and anything in between, especially if it is MY ROLE.

The Rattlesnake was a Pirate Faction Drone Ship with missile support, now its a Pirate Faction Missile Boat with some drone support. And by title comparison them the Procurer is now a Faction Drone Battlecrusier with mining support. So much for roles.


The two systems are roughly balanced in power with the current proposed bonus. You can still fly it as a drone ship with missile support after the change, and it will do so as well or better than it does now.

The idea does fit the Lore poorly. It effectively has 2 Caldari flavored bonuses (Resist, missile damage) and one Gallente flavor (drone bonus). They could put either of the other two bonuses as the role bonus, or even simply bake the resist bonus into the base stats. I disagree strongly with Rise about Gallente 5 being needed.
Linkxsc162534
Apollo United Systems
#10 - 2014-05-09 16:12:10 UTC
Quote:

My first objection is, that the 2 support slots are dearly needed for Drone Link Augmentors to gain 100km + drone control range, without those an MJD and most sniping fits will be useless. I feel forced or obligated to add a 5th launcher, just for the sake of sheet dps, even though I can resist, most won't - how sad.
Further more with the added bonus to missile damage it will make other supposedly pure missile boats like the Navy Scorpion look obsolete.


You know, you don't NEED 2 DLAs, the ship operates perfectly fine with 1, or if you have drone skills maxed, 0. Part of their implied intent with the ship though is to make it a close combat brawler, with heavies/gecko rather than just another sit still and AFK sentry boat. I personally like this, because this is what I use me rattler as already. Also, even with tacking on loads of BCSes, youre not going to match the dps/tank that a navy scorp can (Navy Scorps are true works of art that are far too often overlooked)


Quote:
This is one of the worst changes that kills immersion and playability totally for me, especially if I consider the awesome gift of the Geckos. The Rattlesnake is a 'Drone Ship' and yet, even though it has multiple times the mass of other cruisers and battle cruisers and their capabilities (game lore) it can field only 1 Gecko ... 1 Drone .. WOW ¨¨!!!
The Rattlesnake is many times larger then the Stratios, which can field 4 sentries, and now I can field only 2, makes me feel real mighty (not)! No matter the stats, this is about immersion and playability. I lose the light and medium drone bonuses and now the mighty battleship is weaker then a Skiff or Procurer which even can field 5 medium drones with a 50% bonus of former battleships.


Its to try and break the chains of EVERY drone boat simply tossing out 5 drones ALL the time.
Also its kinda welcome becasue your 1-2 herodrones will be much easier to get to focus fire, and it could be reasonable to carry a repper and keep the DPS out there, rather than just recalling drones when they get aggroed.


Quote:

Regarding the 275% as a value itself, I always found high values and especially multipliers a sign of bad game design. It literally says, look: this is what we wanted to achieve in values, but we don't really know how to do it properly and suitable to the game, its mechanics and lore.


2.75(bonus)*2/5(actual fielded drones now) = 1.1 total bonus in dps over previous drones. High multipliers are perfectly fine game design, as long as they are balanced out. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually run the stats on a new rattler before complaining that everything about it sucks.


Quote:
Missiles/words

Great, now it physically costs me more to run my ship. I really don't see what we gained with that. Also why not just 5/7?
Kin/Therm bonus is fine as is because gurista are the Kin/Therm people

Quote:
Drones

You really want that light/med drone bonus don't ya. Geckos can hit cruisers just fine now without bonuses, and adding a drone tracking link, they blap frigates left and right (even better when the new rattler comes out)

I realize thought hat we probably won't always have our geckos to work with (unless they start offering them in the gurista lp store, which would be great, would really like to see each pirate faction get a version. Gecko has balanced damage across types, other groups take up damage type focuses)

Point is, even if we follow your changes, so the ship gets 3 bonused sentrys, a light/med bonus, and 2 utility highs. Your basically going to end up with an upgraded dominix that fields 2 less sentrys. They're trying to make drones a less homogenous weapons system, and Ironically, after they went and pulled out all the mixed weapon ships (RIP old Typhoon) are trying to push back into a mixed weapon ship.
Heck as it stands, a post update rattler without any damage mods easily matches dps of a current rattler with a damage mod.
Sigras
Conglomo
#11 - 2014-05-09 18:53:00 UTC
The problem is that immersion is not about "meeting your expectations".

There is nothing more or less immersive about controlling few more powerful drones than many less powerful ones.

I think it's perfectly plausible that a group focusing on drones decided to try to soup up their drones at the cost of only having a few of them.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#12 - 2014-05-09 19:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
chaosgrimm wrote:
There is already a thread to discuss rattlesnake changes and it is stickied.

Ehm, No!

There is a common thread regarding all the pirate faction battleships with numerous mixed comments, but no real discussion dedicated to one ship or one change. 2300+ mixed posts, be my guest quoting from there.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
You're really missing the bonus to medium and light drones, aren't you?

Yes, I do, especially the bonus to light drones, because it patches the one vulnerability every bigger vessel has, a counter to smaller and/or faster targets. I'd go as far as keep the old +10% vs lights while dropping the medium bonus all together. I do sometimes have problems already getting the elite frigs in time, the cut bonus won't help and make the Ratter (for me) more of a jumper to get range again.

Batelle wrote:
The hero drone concept has little to do with reducing server load.
The things you say are "immersion breaking" do not seem "immersion breaking" at all to me. I'd be down for it to get a bigger dronebay however. I liked having a variety of medium and light drones and that will be harder now.

If it didn' t, ok.

And regarding the 'immersion break', sure, your opinion, it does though a bit for me. First thing I checked was, if or rather how I could increase the number of drones that i could launch regarding battleships, well, we all know there aren't. When frigs can have 2-3 drones, destroyers 4-5, cruisers 5, then I just expect Battleships to have at least 5, if not 10. The one thing I wasn't looking for was a module that would make my drones better for the cost of quantity.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
...

OK, I don't think we really differ in that perspective

Mike Voidstar wrote:
...

Thanks for some of the numbers. My objection isn't really the buff (I like my Ship getting stronger as a player) nor the added concept, which I like and understand and find thereby in a way innovative, it is with its implementation. The, lets call it - "Super Hero Drone" Concept ruins for me the Rattlesnake Concept. I am not shy moving away from the plain 5 drone deployment, as I mentioned in the added post (6000+keys, which hardly anyone seems to have noticed or acknowledged), I am bothered by it being so exaggerated or in the result - so minimized.
Just 2 drones or 1 in case of the Gecko (yes its unique, but knowing EVE, only for now .. there might be more 50 mbit drones coming) just don't do it for me ... and that's despite values, its about immersion of flying a Drone Battleship, size relations etc ...

A battleship compared to its size, capacity and capabilities should be able to launch dozens of times the numbers a destroyer could, just from the technical and magnitude side. Yet an Algos can field 5 drones of equivalent size and a Rattlesnake only can launch 2, where it should be able to launch 20 - 30, more ? Hero drones would be a squad of 5 for me then. - In this regard, why not 25mbit and 600% drone bonus to lights ? Hero squad?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#13 - 2014-05-09 19:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
You know, you don't NEED 2 DLAs, the ship operates perfectly fine with 1, or if you have drone skills maxed, 0. Part of their implied intent with the ship though is to make it a close combat brawler, with heavies/gecko rather than just another sit still and AFK sentry boat. I personally like this, because this is what I use me rattler as already. Also, even with tacking on loads of BCSes, youre not going to match the dps/tank that a navy scorp can (Navy Scorps are true works of art that are far too often overlooked)

It does not in the event I described, basic plus perfect skills are 60km + 20km for a normal drone link augmentor, how is that enough for a 100km MJD ? I am flying with faction mods that give me 108km and I am happy that they start picking off targets before they even get in lock range, especially after I was forced to jump. And I am not using Wardens and Bouncer for their close range brawler abilities. You know you can get 150km+ with them right ?

Quote:
Its to try and break the chains of EVERY drone boat simply tossing out 5 drones ALL the time.
Also its kinda welcome becasue your 1-2 herodrones will be much easier to get to focus fire, and it could be reasonable to carry a repper and keep the DPS out there, rather than just recalling drones when they get aggroed.

Sure, point. But like I said, I am not against the principle, just taking it that far. I would maybe be all right with the Rattlesnake having 100 mbit, but only being able to filed 2 drones, no matter what (adjusting values of course).

Quote:
2.75(bonus)*2/5(actual fielded drones now) = 1.1 total bonus in dps over previous drones. High multipliers are perfectly fine game design, as long as they are balanced out. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually run the stats on a new rattler before complaining that everything about it sucks.

I never said they suck or that they are bad, quite the opposite, I think they were not needed and if, with the new concept, not in such a fashion.
Almost every time I have experienced fixes via high values they went wrong for the game, there can be exceptions of course, nothing wrong with 300% tractor range ,), but when I see those, my warning lights just go on.

Quote:
Great, now it physically costs me more to run my ship. I really don't see what we gained with that. Also why not just 5/7?
Kin/Therm bonus is fine as is because gurista are the Kin/Therm people

It would cost the same regarding damage output vs ammo, not more. With the implementation it would cost less, way less.
5/7 would be great for me as a player, but I am not sure about the balance, have to think about it.
Anyway, in principle, everything that has a visible slot should be filled, I would love 8 slots on all the Scorp hulls and 6 again on the Myrmidon ,)


Quote:
You really want that light/med drone bonus don't ya. Geckos can hit cruisers just fine now without bonuses, and adding a drone tracking link, they blap frigates left and right (even better when the new rattler comes out)

Just heard to the contrary, but maybe not, I bet their skills weren't as good as yours. Anyway, yes, I would like the light bonus back, I could skip the meds though.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#14 - 2014-05-09 19:53:13 UTC
Quote:
Point is, even if we follow your changes, so the ship gets 3 bonused sentrys, a light/med bonus, and 2 utility highs. Your basically going to end up with an upgraded dominix that fields 2 less sentrys. They're trying to make drones a less homogenous weapons system, and Ironically, after they went and pulled out all the mixed weapon ships (RIP old Typhoon) are trying to push back into a mixed weapon ship.

Why is that bad, isn't that what you said with "Its to try and break the chains of EVERY drone boat simply tossing out 5 drones ALL the time...." - I am just not taking it that far, I worked with the basic concepts and made modifications that I would appreciate more, as a player and in game mechanics, I did not work against them, break or remove them.

Quote:
Heck as it stands, a post update rattler without any damage mods easily matches dps of a current rattler with a damage mod.

Wont disagree there - they called it a buff I believe.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#15 - 2014-05-09 21:17:34 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The problem is that immersion is not about "meeting your expectations".

There is nothing more or less immersive about controlling few more powerful drones than many less powerful ones.

I think it's perfectly plausible that a group focusing on drones decided to try to soup up their drones at the cost of only having a few of them.


Fair enough Big smile
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Space Mob
#16 - 2014-05-10 02:32:41 UTC
On the MJD thing, With a little math you can land at almost any range you want.
PredoneMath
Based on the MJD Comment, I'm going to assume you are using sentry's, Which Should be able to kill frigs long before they get close, So the Light drone bonus is rather unnecessary
I wouldn't mind the Drone damage bonus being 300%, But anymore is Getting into the realm of Crazy DPS with high application.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#17 - 2014-05-10 09:24:06 UTC
Hey, I didn't know about the graph Big smile, I guess if there is a thing to make a chart about someone does.

I do know how to use an MJD though and without it , intuitively, just by looking into space and doing the evaluation in my head. I know how to triangular and bridge any distance in two jumps or get the distance I need to any given target, my accuracy is about 0-5km just by optically aiming.
The issue is with 3+ groups that are spread around you and no matter how you jump the variation will be from 75-130km between after the jump. Dropping MTUs and other bods also drift into the problem, you don't want to jump around too many times to pick up the pieces or abandoned drones.
The best average jump usually leads to around 85-105 km - That's my experience of course, others will probably do it different.

And on another note, I am already faster with my Rattlesnake running L4s then my colleagues with their Navy Scorps, after the Launcher and damage buff, they will hang even more behind. So much for paper missile dps and applied total damage.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2014-05-10 11:05:33 UTC
Just pointing out, I quite happily blap elite frigates with 5x unbonused Hobgoblin IIs. The light/medium drone bonuses are simply not needed for them to still be quite effective at killing small things. That is what they are for afterall.
unnownrelic
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2014-05-10 12:29:33 UTC
A Vindicator isn't bonused for small and medium turret damage, so why should the Rattlesnake receive a bonus for small and medium drones? Admittedly the across-the-board missile damage bonus is a little anomalous, but that doesn't mean the drone bonus should be. Plus, you can still field a full flight of lights and mediums without any problems with your available bandwidth, just like you could easily fit a full rack of 8 small or medium turrets to your Vindicator. It's a ship with a purpose, and that purpose appears to be using heavy drones and any missile it feels like to brawl the bejeebers out of things. If you want to hit out to much longer ranges with your drones you have to start making compromises of some kind, but is that really so bad or out of line?

And lastly, one does not balance around a single special snowflake drone.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#20 - 2014-05-10 13:00:14 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:

2.75(bonus)*2/5(actual fielded drones now) = 1.1 total bonus in dps over previous drones. High multipliers are perfectly fine game design, as long as they are balanced out. Perhaps you should take a moment and actually run the stats on a new rattler before complaining that everything about it sucks.
More bad math. it's +275%, so x3.75; x3.75 over only 2 heavy drones = 7.5 effective heavies, exactly the same as all other top-end drone-focussed boats (Dominix (+Navy), Ishtar, Eos, Sin, Stratios, Nestor, and Armageddon). So, unlike the Worm (8 effective lights) and Gila (12 effective mediums), the Rattlesnake isn't getting extra-ordinary, never-seen-before Hero heavy/sentry drones: it's getting heavy drones that are 25% better than Geckos, except they won't be able to field the additional 2 mediums and 1 light that the abovementioned boats can (and that all of those get their 50% bonuses to too). And that is why (to me) the Rattlesnake changes look lackluster. So, yes, I am saying: Geckos *erode* the niche that the Rattlesnake is supposed to start occupying (even if they are in a somewhat limited supply).

Don't mistake me for someone who dislikes missiles (on the contrary), but the thirst for a missile "pirate"-faction battleship is already being slaked by the Barghest (and I *will* be getting myself one of those); there's just no need to throw the Rattler's drone focus under the bus to fill that hole anymore.

Even something as small as increasing the drone bonus to +300% (8 effective) is enough (for me) to give the proper message that the Rattlesnake is where it's at for heavy drones and sentries. Which is what "pirate"-faction is all about (let's not get bogged down by the disappointment that is the Nestor for now). But adding a slot (anywhere) would be better (and *not* unprecedented: the Worm and Gila have the normal number of slots for "pirate"-faction ships of their size class too, not the -1 "because drones" penalty that is common elsewhere).

Until all are free...

12Next page