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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Granios
Wild Tigers Unleashed
#41 - 2014-05-09 12:26:49 UTC
make novice and small plexes for militra only(to feel like you actualy fighing oposite militra and war) to cut those cry spam from people that not eaven in fw BIGEST COUNTER TO CLOAKY STABED FARMER IS PERSON IN OPOSITING MILITRA your goal is to flip systems not fight

make medium and large with no accelerator gate for others.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#42 - 2014-05-09 12:31:27 UTC
Granios wrote:
make novice and small plexes for militra only(to feel like you actualy fighing oposite militra and war) to cut those cry spam from people that not eaven in fw BIGEST COUNTER TO CLOAKY STABED FARMER IS PERSON IN OPOSITING MILITRA your goal is to flip systems not fight

make medium and large with no accelerator gate for others.


That would just be terrible. Your goal is to fight for the control of that plex. Against anyone who is willing to contest your claim. I'd much rather see plexes put a suspect timer on everyone, so that you can avoid sec status losses.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-05-09 12:32:03 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
These help a bit, so +1

But instead of rats, why not have a structure:

1) this structure only shoots members of the opposing militia when under fire by them (it does not auto-agress)
2) because it does not interfere with PVP, it can have much bigger tank regen, and dps

same dps check, but improved?



That is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of before. No reason to make it be a structure, it can still be a rat. Just don't make it auto agress. You still need to destroy it to o-plex, but because it doesn't auto agress it won't interfere with any PvP
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#44 - 2014-05-09 12:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Igor Nappi
My two cents:

Please introduce:
- a timer reset or at least an (accelerated) backwards countdown when the farmer warps away / cloaks (especially in case a neutral player enters the plex)

and/or

- second capture timer for the opposing militia(s) so that chasing away a hostile farmer and capturing the plex wouldn't mean having to sit in the plex for the original timer + whatever time the farmer spent in the plex before being chased away.

The two features perhaps are a bit contradicting and could probably use a bit of tweaking but I think the general idea is sound.

EDIT: Apparently suggestions somewhat like this have been already posted multiple times in the thread. Gotta read more than the devpost next time, I think :P

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-05-09 12:36:23 UTC
Could we get a ballpark reprate that the NPCs will be changing to for frigs/destroyers/cruisers/BCs? I think the NPC stats have been left out of SDEs recently.

Something like 20/25/40/60 HP/s would be reasonable.
Granios
Wild Tigers Unleashed
#46 - 2014-05-09 12:42:11 UTC
And nerf mission bomber runing becouse trying to catch tham is same bs like trying to catch stabed farmer and thay got 3* more lp than that stabed farmer.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-05-09 12:43:28 UTC
What if we could hack a plex to take off between ~50% off the plexing time? It would come at the cost of needing at least one hacking ship, the difficulty of the hack would be dependent on the plex size and vary a little bit. Failed/quit hacks could either explode, causing harm to the hacker or add time to the beacon.

Unbonused non-hacking ships would have a difficult time hacking these complexes.
Raphael Ordo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2014-05-09 12:45:33 UTC
Kale Freeman wrote:
A much better solution would have been to make cloaking up an unattractive option for the farmer. Better than simply removing the option, and also removing the cloaking option for everyone else as well.

In range of button, counting down timer.
Move outside range, countdown stops.
Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.


This. +1

The problem remains. Give farmers an unattractive option!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-05-09 12:48:21 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You should try and find away to let covert cloaks work.



And in the spirit of helping - why not have a passive targeter on the button and have it lock people up instead. Passive so no UI distractions, locking people blocks cloaks but will keep open tactical ambush options etc.

Have the system take [X] seconds before locking so people NPC bashing and plexing get locked, but people just jumping in to set up ambushes are not.


Any thoughts? Aside from technical limitations blocking it?
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-05-09 12:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
What if players had to 'lock on/connect' to a FW capture point (like an orbital bombardment satellite) in order for it to count down?

Then you could tailor the sig radius of the capture point based on size, but it would also mean that stabbed players would not only have a little bit of a difficult time locking it along with killing NPCs, but they'd be forced to sit on top of it due to the range reductions of their fitted WCSs. Then stabbing and cloaking would be a mutually defeating fit because you couldn't be in range to capture with stabs, but also be able to quickly cloak.
Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-05-09 13:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Starkey
So in general, none of these changes actually address the issues in FW at all. Cloaks and warp core stabilizers were never the problem at hand, they were simply a symphom of a larger issue: the fact that it's more profitable to cap plexes passively than to actually fight and/or contribute to the faction itself.

So what will happen now? Farmers will simply stay at the edge of the 30k radius and burn off + cloak up when someone arrives. Afk farmers will keep using 4-stabbed Punishers while watching Netflix and will just alt tab and warp away when they hear the shield beeping. I doubt the new large complexes will bring much more PVP with larger ships either, as they are constellation wide now, so farmers have even more places to go in backwater systems.

I won't even mention how an extra spawn of NPCs can randomly turn the tide of pvp engagements...

These changes have obviously not been thought trough.

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Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#52 - 2014-05-09 13:21:12 UTC
You still missed the most simple and effective solution: Timer rollbacks

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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#53 - 2014-05-09 13:23:32 UTC
Will every newly spawned NPC drop tags and so be farmable/kill the market?

30km sphere + 2km distance for cloaking, right? Or 28 km?

And while you start rebalancing modules give those fricking WCS a nasty drawback and make them hard to fit.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#54 - 2014-05-09 13:32:15 UTC
I don't understand the cloaking nerf. Farmers use cloaks sometimes, sure, but they primarily use warp core stabs. The main way PVPers have of actually killing farmers with 3-4 stabs is to use cloaky ships to sneak up on them, so in effect you are buffing farmers here.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-05-09 13:34:29 UTC
Nick Starkey wrote:
So in general, none of these changes actually address the issues in FW at all. Cloaks and warp core stabilizers were never the problem at hand, they were simply a symphom of a larger issue: the fact that it's more profitable to cap plexes passively than to actually fight and/or contribute to the faction itself.

So what will happen now? Farmers will simply stay at the edge of the 30k radius and burn off + cloak up when someone arrives. Afk farmers will keep using 4-stabbed Punishers while watching Netflix and will just alt tab and warp away when they hear the shield beeping. I doubt the new large complexes will bring much more PVP with larger ships either, as they are constellation wide now, so farmers have even more places to go in backwater systems.

These changes have obviously not been thought trough.


How would you design a system that makes fighting more profitable than 'farming'? I can't imagine that this wouldn't quickly be abused by people just burning ships.

To say that it isn't the cloaks/stabs that is the problem isn't really thinking it through. You need a resource that's worth fighting over in order to generate fights. To suggest that you could make a system that is purely PvP would be silly.

Part of what FW is, is a labor pool of work hours that converts time spent plexing into LP, which converts ships and modules and other goods into better ships/modules/implants/decryptors that wouldn't otherwise exist. It effectively becomes specialized labor, so at its root it provides a core economic product to the community. To make the warzone entirely about PvP would be to overlook this.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#56 - 2014-05-09 13:45:01 UTC
Fozzie, are there any thoughts to have the 30km also have a warp disruption field?

It would prevent people from actively capturing it to run away with warp core stabs. But when people leave the capture zone/warp disruption field, they can warp away so long as the warp core stabs > points.

granted the flaw to this is that people would just orbit at 28km, but it would be a minor improvement.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#57 - 2014-05-09 14:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
I would like to point out to people going on about stabs, that there are viable *combat* fits (most centered around drones set to aggressive not requiring an actual lock) that use stabs. Podcats (stabbed combat fitted ishkurs) come to mind and people have done similar things with vexors.

Stabs have severe drawbacks to both lock range and scan resolution, they are certainly not without disadvantages. If something warps away from you in an engagement it is because you brought insufficient means of stopping them from doing so, not the other way around. That's true both in and outside of faction warfare. You are not in fact entitled to a kill mail just because you (attempted to) engag(e)d something. Smile
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-05-09 14:16:22 UTC
Fozzie - Thanks for getting this out there, those of us who attended the roundtable did what we could to get our summaries out but having CCP put out something official helps a lot.

To all of you wanting some sort of warp scramble bubble or WCS ban, just stop. CCP stated in their opening post on this thread that it's not happening. Move on.

I'm glad the DPS hurdle for the rats is being raised; combined with the random respawn timer it'll be a lot more difficult for stabbed farmers to kill the rats efficiently, if at all. Several stabbed boats can hit 80-100 DPS with the right fits and skills, but at least it'll raise the barrier to entry for those kind of shennanigans.

While timer rollbacks would be nice, there's just not the development time or tools available for CCP to implement that at this time. Same with mission rebalance, even though they're aware of the issue. Patience, gents, patience.

I like the changes, though as we said in the roundtable having buffer from the 30km capture radius would be better than none. I'm not a fan of nerfing cloaked hunters, but it's not the worst tradeoff in the world in my opinion.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2014-05-09 14:21:36 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I would like to point out to people going on about stabs, that there are viable *combat* fits (most centered around drones set to aggressive not requiring an actual lock) that use stabs. Podcats (stabbed combat fitted ishkurs) come to mind and people have done similar things with vexors.

Stabs have severe drawbacks to both lock range and scan resolution, they are certainly not without disadvantages. If something warps away from you in an engagement it is because you brought insufficient means of stopping them from doing so, not the other way around. That's true both in and outside of faction warfare. You are not in fact entitled to a kill mail just because you (attempted to) engag(e)d something. Smile


personally i don't have a problem with warp core stabs, it's a legit tactic like everything else in eve. But i have 2 "issues". First my minor beef with stabs is that their design leans too far into the realm of survivability than a practical combat module, if they gave a warp speed or acceleration bonus i would be happy with what they are then. The second part is that these are supposed to be "combat sites" and not isk printing sites. I would like to see it where there is more of a combat focus on these sites and make it harder for less combat fits to do things.
Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#60 - 2014-05-09 14:25:26 UTC
Would recommend a reset back to "0" once an offensive or defensive pilot leaves / is forced out of a plex. There should be an incentive for a pilot to "stand his ground" inside of a plex.

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