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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Calsys
Monks of War
#481 - 2014-05-07 20:54:04 UTC
i think i found decision of this feature

remove SBA effects from capitals Big smileBig smileBig smile
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#482 - 2014-05-07 21:27:42 UTC
Phew, finally we begin to discuss the thing which is really important: who is butthertingLol
Calsys
Monks of War
#483 - 2014-05-07 21:37:00 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Phew, finally we begin to discuss the thing which is really important: who is butthertingLol

its your's priority
Justin Cody
War Firm
#484 - 2014-05-07 21:40:03 UTC
the only way this change makes sense is if K162's are delayed in visibility on scanners
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#485 - 2014-05-07 22:53:29 UTC
This is happening regardless of our input, WH guys. So let's try to get something that we would have begged for had this API data never been available..

Glimpse Probes (Name is up for debate)
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#486 - 2014-05-07 23:05:58 UTC
As a previous poster said: the map sucks in general.

Really...think about the Map function inside the client and revamp it into a intel tool. Why the hell do we need Dotlan? Asking a serious question. I have much respect for the 3rd party apps out there, but it is amazing to me this sort of functionality isn't actually in the client in an easily called manner.

Remove the NPC API calls, fine...but "throw us a bone", and use the opportunity to improve a system game wide.

-K

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#487 - 2014-05-08 00:49:05 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
This is happening regardless of our input, WH guys.


I still hope its not. We still have CSM representative who can explain pros and cons to CCP, despite the fact that NoHoles as a hardcore PVP alliance have pretty wide TZ and do not need to rely on this data as often as we do, and mostly do not use prolonged login traps tacticts. Still the damage from imbalanced safe C5/C6 farming is seen and should be considered.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#488 - 2014-05-08 00:53:56 UTC
Siggy is dead, long live Siggy for k-space.

I was discussing this change with guys who have Siggy, while they were actually using it. They were fairly blasé about it.
I got interrupted by "ooh, look, ratting activity in that C2 off Osmomonne."
"That, there is my point entirely. You will no longer have that ability to just see someone starting up ratting, real-time."
"..."

Also, to King Fu hostile, did it ever occur to you that RudinV may not have English as his first language? Don't doucheknuckle your way about an international game picking apart someone's argument just because they are not an English speaker.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
MS10NVY
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#489 - 2014-05-08 01:27:55 UTC
I think the best bet is to hope that if they "fix" this they might fix other problems. Tho that would be too much effort :CCP:
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#490 - 2014-05-08 02:34:06 UTC
Removed trolling post.

Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#491 - 2014-05-08 03:31:25 UTC
not it~!
Zenzija
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#492 - 2014-05-08 04:09:53 UTC
Alright, so if you do this, do this to null then...



1. Remove Local - Completely.
2. Remove NPC/Ship Kills from updating immediately - Delay it by 2 - 4 hours.


Wormholes
1. Increase the spawn rate of c1 - c4 sites.
2. Have wormhole effects affect POSs, and anchored structures.
3. Rebalance Black Holes (Most UNUSED wormhole)
4. Allow c5 - c6 gases to spawn in lower ones, just smaller amounts 500/1000 or 250/500
5. Increase mass to wormholes.


I mean, if you're going to remove essential information like that, might as well just remove it for everyone then. Seems fair, right? It's like taking a 50 Caliber rifle away from a sniper, and giving him a 22, while asking him to hit someone 1.5miles away.

GOOD LUCK!
Ragnen Delent
13.
#493 - 2014-05-08 04:45:56 UTC
Zenzija wrote:
Alright, so if you do this, do this to null then...



1. Remove Local - Completely.
2. Remove NPC/Ship Kills from updating immediately - Delay it by 2 - 4 hours.


Wormholes
1. Increase the spawn rate of c1 - c4 sites.
2. Have wormhole effects affect POSs, and anchored structures.
3. Rebalance Black Holes (Most UNUSED wormhole)
4. Allow c5 - c6 gases to spawn in lower ones, just smaller amounts 500/1000 or 250/500
5. Increase mass to wormholes.


I mean, if you're going to remove essential information like that, might as well just remove it for everyone then. Seems fair, right? It's like taking a 50 Caliber rifle away from a sniper, and giving him a 22, while asking him to hit someone 1.5miles away.

GOOD LUCK!


Why? What part of "This information is only accessible through out of game tools" do you not understand. How is this in any way taking away "essential information"?
Alhambra Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2014-05-08 04:51:46 UTC
This is a great change for WH space and I fully support it . Easy mode siggy gankers will now have to "work" for a living. It's not like you don't have the piles of PLEX for alts.

Remember this isn't COD or Nullsec; get bent and monitor your chains the way it was intended.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#495 - 2014-05-08 05:36:50 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Siggy is dead, long live Siggy for k-space.

I was discussing this change with guys who have Siggy, while they were actually using it. They were fairly blasé about it.
I got interrupted by "ooh, look, ratting activity in that C2 off Osmomonne."
"That, there is my point entirely. You will no longer have that ability to just see someone starting up ratting, real-time."
"..."

Also, to King Fu hostile, did it ever occur to you that RudinV may not have English as his first language? Don't doucheknuckle your way about an international game picking apart someone's argument just because they are not an English speaker.


English is my third language, and language has **** all to do with his hilarious maths and attitude issues.

King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#496 - 2014-05-08 05:47:37 UTC
Cassini Valentine wrote:
(Also posted in deployable structures thread)
Quote:

Radiation Detection Unit (Mobile Geiger Counter). (Designed for W-Space)

Seeing as NPC kills are being removed from api for W-Space because it's an unfair advantage to have free intel that ruins the lore aspect and immersion of w-space I would like to introduce the idea of a Radiation detection unit.

When sleepers die they emit a radiation from their core capacitor systems that leaves it's radiation signature in the system. The idea being that you can use the deployable device to measure the relative levels of radiation to pin point the time at which a magnitude of sleepers were killed. This deployable would have a data collection time of 20 minutes and would be able to detect PvE activity from up to 12 hours ago (to be tweaked). The deployable will be recognisable on d-scan and combat scanner probes.


Designed idea would be good because:

Reduces seemly emptiness of w-space through encouraging player interaction and content around the unit. W-Space is empty enough as it is PvP is very difficult to come by.
Comes to a compromise on the free intel / NPC kill information to be available for W-Space whilst in keeping with lore.
Is not an advantage provided by a 3rd party.
Used by attacking groups but gives the defenders a heads up of incoming hostilies/activity to prepare for a fight/gank.
Systems with lots of radiation (lots of PvE) are more at risk of being attacked (more PvE corresponds with increasing PvP danger)
Cannot be used to monitor NPC kills away from system for log off traps if defenders destroy the unit (log off traps will require the appropriate planning for time to gather intel).


W-Space should be dangerous, difficult and unknown. The current changes with the discovery scanner makes mass PvE too safe for its relative reward (~700 mil per capital escalation). Intel should only be gained through meaningful interaction and this deployable ensures that.


W-Space should be unknown, but not seemingly empty. Corps should only get intel that they've gathered through meaningful interaction. The deployable structure Idea is open to criticism.


Structure and probe ideas as suggested in this thread are insanely better gameplay than AFK 3rd party tools. Deployables provide points of interaction and require player participation at some point.

+1 for working towards this kind of solution, CCP please take note as deployable intel tool would make all these whiners happy and be an appropriately EVE-like solution.
Winthorp
#497 - 2014-05-08 05:51:31 UTC
As this thread is now going the way of Fozzies other idea thread in WH section and now we are completely ignored by Devs and the thread is now filled with nullsec players who don't even understand how we play our game day in day out making stupid arguments with no reasoning other then the original technical standpoint of CCP Foxfour then its time for me to unsubscribe this clusterfuck.

I have voiced my concerns in here enough and i hope CCP sees reason and doesn't make this change but if they do for some stupid technical reason then i hope they take the time to actually look at our content generation in WH space and how we interact with our neighbors and look to improve it instead of just kneejerk reactionary development.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2014-05-08 05:56:33 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:


These API-based sources give part of this information; just by jumping through the WH and getting the system's name they provide statistics about NPC's, ships and pods killed through severals days. Of course, it could be the residents doing their stuff or someone that came to run their sites or kill them.

In my opinion, while the information provided by these 3rd party sources is indeed useful, it is not an indispensable part of any PVP activities. At the end of the day you'll be sending scouts anyway, which will give you even more information than the API did. If you're following a chain, you should be scouting the whole chain, otherwise the chances of bad things happening to your group increase a lot, and that would be completely fair: in a type of space the only info you'll get is through your scanners, not using them is comparable to having Local Chat minimized in nullsec.

If this idea is approved and implemented, every WH resident (and raiders from K-space) will have to learn again how does WH-space work: the way it was originally intended to do. It is not impossible to gank site-runners without API intel; it requires more implication by the attackers. New hole? Take those covops, jump through and start flooding your fleet chat/TS/whatever with information and bookmarks. Stay there for some time, consider taking vigilance turns, keep at least one scout in each system of the chain you're exploring. Make sure those cloaks are running, find the site-runners, arrange a fleet adapted to what the enemy has, let the hunting begin. Just like playing WH-space was when it was first implemented. Not the end of the world.

WH-space is designed to be like living in the wild. If you want intel, you have to look it for yourself, or risk falling prey to those who do. The rewards are highly desirable: high-end salvage, ore, gas and the remains of the quite pimped-up ships needed for achieving that, as well as the stuff stored at POS'. Having access to intel through 3rd party sources does not fit with this definition of WH-space and, in my opinion, feels a bit like cheating.


You clearly have never scouted for targets.
Thanks to the instant sig spawn since exodus:
All targets except sieged/triaged caps will long have gone into poss shields before you can even find out where they are.
Scouting down the chain makes the time to find and hold targets even longer.

And it take at least a 3 days to seed and ly in wait to do a log-off trap.
Without this data you will need to add at least a week to scout it out.
The farmers are outnumbering the pvp corps at least 5 to 1.
So bringing in this change now will increase the saftly of these farmers at least 50% probably more.
Keeping a scout in each system of the chain isn't that usefull since farmers will start with rolling their hole.
If they do that 2 hole away you will never get there in time before it closes.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#499 - 2014-05-08 06:03:52 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
As this thread is now going the way of Fozzies other idea thread in WH section and now we are completely ignored by Devs and the thread is now filled with nullsec players who don't even understand how we play our game day in day out making stupid arguments with no reasoning other then the original technical standpoint of CCP Foxfour then its time for me to unsubscribe this clusterfuck.

I have voiced my concerns in here enough and i hope CCP sees reason and doesn't make this change but if they do for some stupid technical reason then i hope they take the time to actually look at our content generation in WH space and how we interact with our neighbors and look to improve it instead of just kneejerk reactionary development.


It's not some "stupid technical reason", it's a game design reason. NPC kills statistics should not be available in wormhole space.

If you need ratting statistics for your "content generation", why not move to K-space to "interact with your neighbours"
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#500 - 2014-05-08 07:43:23 UTC
Is this one persone who speak: it should be like this cose DEVs think it should be like this, or is it a group of ? Please take note that you use same reason for more than 25 pages of discussion, don't want to be rude but can u try something new? Besides that I want to mention that devs don't "play" the game, they don't scout, don't pvp in wh, literally they don't care about if we have this intel or not, they have another motivations, so don't u think its more reasonable to discuss this "fix" at the "customers" level?