Player Features and Ideas Discussion

That was a mistake in how I formatted the post. Only the first couple lines were directed at you, the rest at the tear-jerkers. I already knew your stance. Sorry for the confusion.

If this nerf goes through you should make wormhole capital PvE farming a little harder also, maybe double the escalation waves that would be nice 12 sleepers on 1st capital and 18 on 2nd capital. This will prevent from running sites in 5-10 minutes and would make them last atleast 20-25 and ofcourse make all sleepers scramble. This way once PvEérs are found the PVPers have a chance to actually kill them.

Dreams... Right...

There are 113 C6 WH's. Someone mentioned rolling holes 50-70 (really?) times a day looking for targets. RNG not withstanding that gives a decent chance of finding the same WH's every "few days". So if you and your corpmates are the only thing saving Eve from financial ruin it shouldn't be hard to make it a war of attrition in which the horrible carebears hardly ever get a chance to farm. Start taking notes about who the worst offenders are, and every time you roll into them clean them out, they'll find somewhere else to make their isk.

I like how you get to farm with efficiency and comfort, but the carebears are absolutely forbidden to do so because they won't fight a losing battle when you show up with a superior force.

There is. I was quite fond of DaOpa's idea to use their new player structure system to make an item that gathers data like this while it's anchored in a system. I chimed in that it should be combat probe findable, but not d-scanable.

That idea isn't without merit, but it sounds like to leverage such a tool would require leaving a scout logged off in system, (again, the hundred scan alts issue) or, encourage coalition-like metadata sharing between wh entities. I'd hate to see 'overlords' turn into the next blue doughnut... box of blue doughnut holes? Whatever you want to call it.

note - you should deside for yourself - in your dreams carebears fight, hide, or run

seems you did not read the thread. lets briefly repeat few things:

1) There are 113 C6. At the each moment of our active time 2-3 are active. 50-70 statics - takes whole active day. You can only have 1 static open. Chain is 1-3-5 WHs long, sometimes it takes longer to scan than to rollm so mostly 1-3 . Do the math about chances to find active targets and getting them before they hide or run away having insta-popping signatures. Or you can look twitch for aztecs rolling some time - keeping in mind there are about 3 times more active targets during their prime.

2) There are 512 C5. At each moment about 5 are active. You can do the math here too. And dont forget that you can get same statics twice or more in a row.

3) Our "Incoming force" is always less then defending one - we can seed only 3 capitals since there are WH mass limits. Defenders can have any number of reinforcements. We - dont.

Also, pls do the math for chance to get people who smart enough to farm in "dead" hours. Little tip - its a zero, thats explains why we have unique carebears on our kb never killed before by anyone.

We farm only necessary amount of isks to create PVP content - we dont have interests in carebearing. That is why we using isks to get fights and spend hours looking for targets instead And thats - what distinct carebears from PVPers.

Yes, predators like us do saving EVE from this

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J132106/stats/2014-04-10:2014-05-06

Check here
https://zkillboard.com/system/31002466/

for number of kills from npc alts, nullsec bears or entities who support the change. oh ... wait.

Ha. While it is true that larger groups would probably coalesce that information pretty effectively, it at least gets the placement and work being done back in the game. As well, you wouldn't necessarily need to keep an alt in there, you could place it and bookmark it. Whenever you enter a system, check your BM folder for them to see if you're supposed to have one in a given system. Check it and get info, or come to the realization it's been destroyed.

It could also run on an extended version of the mechanic used for GSC's - if not checked within the last 90 days, despawn. That should be long enough (especially if these groups are cycling 70+ holes a day, like was said earlier).

Also, make it so anyone can access it. If someone who isn't the locals finds it, they can choose to destroy it, make use of it, or plan to make a trap on it. Same as the locals can destroy it or just plan to retaliate and bait them. Breeds another type of content.

ufff that was a looong trip, but i had time to think about and now i can try to specify why its a bad "fix".
I would like to point on this problem from another side, lets ask CCP who was initiator of this fix? What was the main idea-why it should be fixed? The story with "ops, 5 years fix just came up to the mind" seems like bull** for me. Five years it was ok and now boom-we have to fix it, and u must push us really really hard to make our change mind. From what i see from some CCP FourFox that was a discussion with a group of wh dwellers and one of the general point was: its too easy to seed a cap group and kill helpless bears in few seconds.
So for now we have: Carebears who want to farm bit safer, and CCP who want to "fix" enviroment in order to balance things.
There is one general misunderstanding: carebears are not helpless. for more than 2 years of log off trapping they did not improved their game style. I mean at all. Same one armor rep fits. Same 2 dreads/1-2 carriers+webbers on the grid. Same tactics, same mistakes. They do not want to even try to adjust fittings, they do not wanna try "refit" (its not that hard guys, ive done it few times before) I mean, dont read this as pointing on some "low skill dudes, as super l33t pvper wanna point". No. Im just trying to say that instead of improving they want to change world around and be well in it. I dont want to say " wtf, this is bad, this is wrong, blahblab" No. being lazy is natural statement of nature, if u are fed, u dont wanna move, this is life. Its not dumb or smart, it is like this. I hope until now u understand everything, becouse im almost finished.
So at this point we have: people who want to be happy without improving and CCP who wants the same: them to be happy.
So finally, why it is bad: You cant make them happy, No matter what, no matter how much u do- you cant make them happy. Today they dont like api-fix it, and tomorrow they will say-the wormhole mass is too big-fix it, and they will say-we need more loot-fix it, and it will go like this forever. Try to change enviroment and u will play against evolution. Play against evolution and u will die.
Cancel API. fix no matter what you want to fix, just make this game as you see it should be. But do not listen people who choose to sit and wait the food appear, instead go and make it by yourself.


This is a prove of evoltuion.
The prove of laziness and degradation u can see at ours killboard.

We in Ember's Children support this change. We agree that w-space should be dangerous, but it should also be populated.

In recent times we have observed that there seem to be fewer and fewer people taking to their space ships in w-space and that has meant fewer targets for us.

Since we use API-based intel to find people running sites passively I have to assume that all other entrenched w-space pvp-focused corps do the same.

I think the ease of finding targets once the chain is scanned out is a likely cause of people fleeing back to k-space - they simply got blown up too often.

+1

Do it now. Save our w-space.

As a WH-space resident that both runs sites and scouts actively both own system and connected ones (that means, taking a covops in there) I say yes to this change.

Before all these 3rd party intel sources existed, the only way of knowing about activity in a system was to go there and scout as much as you can. If you're really interested in a system, you send some scouts that warp around with their D-Scan burning and looking for ships, wrecks, probes, POS... Those scouts can stay there as much time as the WH they came through remains there, gathering info about who is there, what do they do, what do they have... The group then decides if they want to bring their combat ships and try to destroy stuff and loot.

These API-based sources give part of this information; just by jumping through the WH and getting the system's name they provide statistics about NPC's, ships and pods killed through severals days. Of course, it could be the residents doing their stuff or someone that came to run their sites or kill them.

In my opinion, while the information provided by these 3rd party sources is indeed useful, it is not an indispensable part of any PVP activities. At the end of the day you'll be sending scouts anyway, which will give you even more information than the API did. If you're following a chain, you should be scouting the whole chain, otherwise the chances of bad things happening to your group increase a lot, and that would be completely fair: in a type of space the only info you'll get is through your scanners, not using them is comparable to having Local Chat minimized in nullsec.

I'd also like to point out there are many ways to play in WH-space, as happens in K-space. You have PVE oriented groups living in higher class WH's running capital scalations. You have PVP oriented groups living almost anywhere rolling those statics until they find something to kill and loot. You have groups that do both PVE and PVP as they please, taking all WH-space has to offer. You have PVE oriented groups that raid other systems for their sites. The list goes on.
With this I mean this issue should not take in account just the 2 first cases.

If this idea is approved and implemented, every WH resident (and raiders from K-space) will have to learn again how does WH-space work: the way it was originally intended to do. It is not impossible to gank site-runners without API intel; it requires more implication by the attackers. New hole? Take those covops, jump through and start flooding your fleet chat/TS/whatever with information and bookmarks. Stay there for some time, consider taking vigilance turns, keep at least one scout in each system of the chain you're exploring. Make sure those cloaks are running, find the site-runners, arrange a fleet adapted to what the enemy has, let the hunting begin. Just like playing WH-space was when it was first implemented. Not the end of the world.

WH-space is designed to be like living in the wild. If you want intel, you have to look it for yourself, or risk falling prey to those who do. The rewards are highly desirable: high-end salvage, ore, gas and the remains of the quite pimped-up ships needed for achieving that, as well as the stuff stored at POS'. Having access to intel through 3rd party sources does not fit with this definition of WH-space and, in my opinion, feels a bit like cheating.

That said, there's one thing API sources provide that the EVE client does not and that could be considered (italics because this could also go against the 'unknown' feeling; more on it later) to be accesible ingame: the numerical effects of system effects. Right now the only way to know wich percentages are we talking about is to open Evelopedia or these API sources and find them there. Not having access to this info ingame somehow encourages to use out of game sources; even if that source is Evelopedia, it forces you out of game and that tends to break inmersion and gameplay. It's like 'if you want to know the exact numbers, I'm sorry but you'll have to find them out in a wiki'. On the other hand, CCP might want these numbers to not be directly knowable in order to fit with the 'unknown' spirit, but since lore-wise WH-space has been explored by the Empires, it makes sense they had this information already measured and avaliable to us capsuleers.
As a suggestion, I imagine being able to right click in-space the system effect, show info and have its type, intensity and effects displayed in a comfortable window.