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Factional Warfare
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Eric de'Locke
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-06 09:46:19 UTC
I hear that there are going to be a few changes to Factional Warfare in the upcoming summer expansion? I've only been playing FW for just over a month now and don't see it as broken, just in need of a few tweaks.

To quote EVELopedia "Factional Warfare (FW) brings war to New Eden by open conflict between the four main empires of EVE. FW is designed to introduce PvP to both new and old players as well as to offer a new play option for veteran PvPers. Players participating in FW will engage in open conflict with enemies of their chosen empire."

As the main focus in FW is to capture systems and fight opposition forces, the focus must always remain within those guidelines. Which brings me to a few points that I think needs to be addressed.

1) Plexing: Plexing is a vital part in capturing a system, and has scaling rewards based on Tiers. The main problem is "farmers" that have no intention of "playing the game." The risk of plexing is getting caught and your ship destroyed, which is part of PvP and also a reward in-an-of-itself when you win the fight. But when you come up against a stabbed farmer that has no intention of PvPing, then you are going up against someone that is using the rules to gain more than he is risking. Therefore to be able to activate a gate a ship must not have any Warp Core Stabilizer fitted. This brings me to my second point below.

2) To encourage PVP, LP rewards should be increased substantially. This will allow the separate rewards for current tactics to be earned as a viable income to replace lost ships, modules, etc.

3) Non-FW PvPers should also be looked at as they play no part in Factional Warfare but do offer additional targets for pew pew. I'm not sure how this will be implemented, but something in the lines of: limit or reduce the sec status hit for militia pilots fighting within a Factional Warzone. After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.

Those are my 3 main concerns regarding FW, looking forward to hearing your opinions and comments.
Seliah
Red Cloud Vigil
#2 - 2014-05-06 10:00:05 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:

3) Non-FW PvPers should also be looked at as they play no part in Factional Warfare but do offer additional targets for pew pew. I'm not sure how this will be implemented, but something in the lines of: limit or reduce the sec status hit for militia pilots fighting within a Factional Warzone. After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.


FW is a form of fighting sanctioned by CONCORD for capsuleers enrolled in one of the four militias. If you engage non-criminal non-militia pilots, then you're no longer within the boundaries of FW fighting and I don't see why CONCORD would tolerate that more than any other illegal engagement.

Eric de'Locke wrote:

After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.


Engaging neutrals isn't what you're supposed to do, is it ? Unless they engage you first of course, but then that's just self-defense and CONCORD won't penalise you for it.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3 - 2014-05-06 10:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Eric de'Locke wrote:
I hear that there are going to be a few changes to Factional Warfare in the upcoming summer expansion? I've only been playing FW for just over a month now and don't see it as broken, just in need of a few tweaks.

To quote EVELopedia "Factional Warfare (FW) brings war to New Eden by open conflict between the four main empires of EVE. FW is designed to introduce PvP to both new and old players as well as to offer a new play option for veteran PvPers. Players participating in FW will engage in open conflict with enemies of their chosen empire."

As the main focus in FW is to capture systems and fight opposition forces, the focus must always remain within those guidelines. Which brings me to a few points that I think needs to be addressed.

1) Plexing: Plexing is a vital part in capturing a system, and has scaling rewards based on Tiers. The main problem is "farmers" that have no intention of "playing the game." The risk of plexing is getting caught and your ship destroyed, which is part of PvP and also a reward in-an-of-itself when you win the fight. But when you come up against a stabbed farmer that has no intention of PvPing, then you are going up against someone that is using the rules to gain more than he is risking. Therefore to be able to activate a gate a ship must not have any Warp Core Stabilizer fitted. This brings me to my second point below.

2) To encourage PVP, LP rewards should be increased substantially. This will allow the separate rewards for current tactics to be earned as a viable income to replace lost ships, modules, etc.

3) Non-FW PvPers should also be looked at as they play no part in Factional Warfare but do offer additional targets for pew pew. I'm not sure how this will be implemented, but something in the lines of: limit or reduce the sec status hit for militia pilots fighting within a Factional Warzone. After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.

Those are my 3 main concerns regarding FW, looking forward to hearing your opinions and comments.



Regarding stabbed cloaky unfair farmers.LolRoll

There are Plenty of ways to catch them. A few stabs do not make them impossible to catch and kill.
A challenge? yes. Easy? No.

It is a game of cat and mouse.
They are being good mice.

A cat should not complain and ask that the mouse should have one foot nailed to the ground, and blow a trumpet so it can be found.because, you know, it is just not Fair!Roll

So not a good idea. Risk reward you say?
Why should the mouse be a victim for your cheap risk free kills, and prevented from being a good mouse? Fight back you say? Mice make poor cats you know.

Suggestion?

Be a better cat.

Try being a mouse for a while, and see if you can find the weaknesses. And learn how to exploit them.

Edit: I have a Fw character, he started as a mouse on his second day, later he moved onto better things.
He never needed more isk, or more encouragement, the mind numbing boredom, mixed with the stress of the whole plexing situation Was the reason he went from being a good mouse, To one who was capable of dealing with your situation, because he had been the mouse. He learnt to exploit their failings. Being prey simply is not fun. Being a good mouse and laughing at the cats is hilarious, but Being a good predator is a blast though, much more fun..

Nail the mouse to the floor and the mouse never makes the jump to becoming a capable predator.

Regarding neutrals.
While you may feel like the predator in FW, the neutrals who come in think of you as the mouse. You are their prey, not the plexers.
They are the cat to YOUR mouse.
This is another area where you need to learn from the mouse until you can become the tiger.

Regarding more rewards.
Do you believe that isk can ever encourage one to want to PvP? PvP is it's own reward, do it if you like it, do not if you do not.

The mechanism exists for you to loot your victims for modules. There is also the plex. Hang in it a while, spamming DScan, pretend to be a mouse while earning lovely LP. Warp off when outnumbered, be bait to draw in weaker targets. Pick your fights.

Just shooting things in the face whilst dying more than you kill, is not a sustainable position.

Just get better at being a mouse, and get better at being a cat.
No one else should be penalised to help you avoid that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Eric de'Locke
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-07 08:04:06 UTC
I have no problem with being either cat or mouse, sometimes at the same time, which is loads of fun. And I don't really care about cloaky farmers, as chasing them is kinda fun anyway. It's the stabbed farmers that get my heart racing. You know that feeling when you're about to enter a fight and your palms go all sweaty, your pupils dilated ... and then you see the target warp away when in half armour because he's an afk stabbed farmer. But what he's doing defeats the purpose of FW and it's basic description. That's why I see FW needs a few tweaks.

I hear that cloaking may be disable within the button's radius to discourage farming. Rather do without warp stabbs in a plex (and maybe increase LP for fights), this will encourge more players to fight for a plex.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#5 - 2014-05-07 10:08:03 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
I have no problem with being either cat or mouse, sometimes at the same time, which is loads of fun. And I don't really care about cloaky farmers, as chasing them is kinda fun anyway. It's the stabbed farmers that get my heart racing. You know that feeling when you're about to enter a fight and your palms go all sweaty, your pupils dilated ... and then you see the target warp away when in half armour because he's an afk stabbed farmer. But what he's doing defeats the purpose of FW and it's basic description. That's why I see FW needs a few tweaks.

I hear that cloaking may be disable within the button's radius to discourage farming. Rather do without warp stabbs in a plex (and maybe increase LP for fights), this will encourge more players to fight for a plex.


I disagree.
Quote:
But what he's doing defeats the purpose of FW
It is working fine.
It was never promised that the plex runners were to be there as a source of free kills.
You have the same opportunities to kill them as they have their opportunities to escape, Find a tactic and be amused by their shock when their quad stabbed ship dies.

I really meant it , be a better cat. It does work.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Eric de'Locke
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-05-07 11:43:14 UTC
I have tactics to catch cloaky stabbed farmers, it's pretty easy. I just hate having to change ships all the time, especially when they aren't close by. And you are definitely right, it's always funny watching local when they die, "Why you not let me farm?"

But I still think that limiting stabbs in plexes is a good thing as it is Factional Warfare, not Factional Farming. That's why I said that FW isn't broken, but maybe in need of a few tweaks.
Eric de'Locke
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-05-10 16:55:47 UTC
Seliah wrote:
Eric de'Locke wrote:

3) Non-FW PvPers should also be looked at as they play no part in Factional Warfare but do offer additional targets for pew pew. I'm not sure how this will be implemented, but something in the lines of: limit or reduce the sec status hit for militia pilots fighting within a Factional Warzone. After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.


FW is a form of fighting sanctioned by CONCORD for capsuleers enrolled in one of the four militias. If you engage non-criminal non-militia pilots, then you're no longer within the boundaries of FW fighting and I don't see why CONCORD would tolerate that more than any other illegal engagement.

Eric de'Locke wrote:

After all, militia pilots are doing what they are supposed to and shouldn't be penalised for it.


Engaging neutrals isn't what you're supposed to do, is it ? Unless they engage you first of course, but then that's just self-defense and CONCORD won't penalise you for it.


You are mistaken in your assumption that Factional Warfare is sanctioned by CONCORD in the same vain as presuming that a police force sanctions a war within a country. They are there to keep the peace. They do however sanction war declared between corporations and/or alliances, which is separate from FW. But I can see how you'd get confused by them.

Factional Warfare is the control of territory which is done through capturing systems within designated "war zones." As well as preventing systems from being captured in return by "enemy" militia. Now to capture a system you have to sit in a complex for an amount of time. To prevent enemies from capturing a system you have to chase out and/or destroy the ship of the said enemy. Now when a neutral goes into a plex, his intent is has been made very clear. He intends to attack, it's that simple. In order to defend the plex, it is advantageous to attack the offending pilot first in case he pulls range and destroys your ship. Now as part of the militia, I am doing what is intended within the FW guidelines and then still taking a sec status hit because a neutral wants to look for an easy a target. So, while in a plex, any militia should not have to take a sec status hit due to the fact that he is there to complete a task with FW guidelines. What happens outside a plex is a different story and subject to a sec status hit.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#8 - 2014-05-10 18:37:57 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
first of all thank you for including large plexes in the regular FW spawn cycle we asked for it since inferno - a really nice change.

The other two changes however i really can't support. The problem is that they most likely will make plexing more annoying without fixing anything.

If you are after LP running or hiding is still more efficient than fighting, making running or hiding more difficult does not fix the problem its just a dirty way of dealing of the symptoms of the mechanics.

CCP has a history of fixing symptoms instead of the problem, for example if you look back what happened in inferno, plex layout changes like moving the beacon closer to the warpin or the requirement to kill the rat instead of tanking it did not help at all to motivate farmers to get out the vicious circle and use pvp ships (it really is the first step, if you don't do this you have no choice but running away).



A fix of the problem would NOT be to prohibit cloaks, or block stabs. It would be to penalize running or hiding. Sounds horribly complicated right? FEAR NOT ITS THE EASIEST FIX IN THE WORLD. I am sure nobody in the forums EVER suggested timer resets as most obvious fix to the problem. Kappa

So how would a CLEAN FIX OF THE PROBLEM look you ask? There are many many variations of the timer reset or rollback proposal. Here a few examples:
- timer ticks backwards in accelerated fashion till it reaches neutral state if a player waits in the plex
- timer ticks backwards till it reaches the neutral (normal speed) state if everything left the beacon
- timer resets immediately (imagine you could spend lp on the plex structure to reset it)
- ... just a few EXAMPLES

you say, hey thats not fair since i might waste so much time of my life plexing. FEAR NOT timer length is not set in stone.
- imagine someone would reduce timer length and payouts to balance the now fixed mechanics between EXPANSIONS

you say everybody would blob and i can't solo anymore (sidenote: i solo pvp at least 90% of my gametime)
- firstly, the nature of blobs is that they a) get killed by a larger blob or b) dissolve quickly since there is no other blob around
- secondly, having a blob you still won't be able to cover whole FW space. A route through all amarr systems alone has 32+ jumps, and thats half of the warzone. (cal-gal WZ is much larger btw) How often do you think a blob would fly this route?
- thirdly, crazy concepts like patrol gangs might actually work, you could defend (selected) systems or disrupt your opponent defending systems WITHOUT TRADING TIME 1:1 WITH FARMERS
- solo farming WILL STILL PERFECTLY WORK, all you would have to do is to use a pvp fit an pick a quiet system


so what would happen after implementing the MOST OBVIOUS FIX IN EVE HISTORY you ask?
- stabs, cloaks will serve the original purpose: protecting your ship but using them for make LP won't work anymore
- plexing will be a mechanic to create confilct and you would see more fights in them
- frigs will stick to novices, destroyers to small plexes and cruisers to medium plexes
- people will plex together in great joy, celebrating the new plexing mechanics

OMG the fix is PERFECT you say, do we still need the other stuff?
- actually no, rats, artificial rules like cloak inhibitors don't matter anymore, you could just remove them or keep them... doesn't matter

but you still want to EXPLOIT A BROKEN SYSTEM TO FARM LP WITHOUT RISK OR EFFORT you say?
- no problem m8. FW covers EVERYTHING. You can fly pve missions which allow you to complete them without NPC agro, 0 risk... you can cloak any time, watch a movie etc. Best of all: it doesn't influence sov and its the perfect solo mechanic DESIGNED TO BE NO CONFLICT DRIVER

but what if this change is made and it DOESN'T WORK (fictional, highly theoretical scenario - won't happen ever)
- luckily eve has now a new 6 week deployment model so you could implement the "we will monitor the situation and tweak the system later" - inferno - CCP Soundwave - before riot - promise with minimal effort


thanks for listening and thanks for the large plex change

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.