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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Justin Cody
War Firm
#361 - 2014-05-07 00:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
CCP Prism X wrote:
So.. as the former API guy and member of Team Bifröst, the team that made the wormhole space; You were never supposed to be able to see this data. If it's not in the client it cannot be in the API because the same information should be available to everybody playing this game. Nobody is supposed to get a decisive advantage because they have access to data other people have no means of availing themselves to.

The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.

Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to foxfour@ccpgames.com.

Thank you and have a nice day!



Ok, so thanks for confessing your sins. Rather than scream obscenities at you I will offer something from the (I think 2 years now) that I've lived in W-space.

- 1) regardless of the fact that you mistakenly included this data in the API it has been the status quo
- 2) removing this entirely with no replacement or way to be creative for W-space residents is bad m'kay
- 3) CCP routinely encourages players to be creative with their applications and this effectively gives those creative members a nice big middle finger in the air...especially since this is fixing something that isn't broken.
- 4) Game Design be damned. Null sec sov is broken as heck and while CCP intends on working on this...I don't see any discussions about...say making outposts destructible because of game design. You wait until its appropriate and until it is time to re-factor and then redo the system.

So my question about W-Space is this:

If we've been 'doing it wrong' for 6 years by doing it the way it was actually designed (rather than intended Roll) then what is the exact motive for fixing this? This is like finding out your car's GPS was too accurate and a firmware update goes out and deliberately makes it less accurate because some engineer made it too good and designed it too well. Of course my ISP recently did this to me. My latency doubled due to a firmware patch because they felt my performance was too high so now I pay the same amount for basically half the performance.

You want us to pay the same for game-time and give less performance. You might see this as a bad thing regardless of intent. So please clarify your overall intent for W-space game design going forward. Will you be giving us more deployables for intel gathering? Will you be giving us more tools to use W-space? Or is W-space an aborted concept which will not be iterated upon in a constructive manner due to #newspace and #sovjumpgates and all that. How will you boost exploration in W-space and encourage innovation by players in a PvP sense?

If you don't have an answer for augmentation and simply give us the parochial line of "because I said so" then expect us to reject that line of thought because it reduces the quality of our play experience.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#362 - 2014-05-07 01:09:18 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Alundil wrote:
.

your entire garbage post does not distinguish between "data not provided by the client ever" and "data that people prefer to have provided out of game for analysis by a third party tool"

the first is what is being eliminated, the second is what the api is for


In some of the original discussion in the other thread, some of CCP Foxfour's reasoning was
basically
Quote:
This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not


in true CCP PR fashion - the yardstick of "why we want to make a change" continually moves once announced because they literally have no idea about how to propose changes to a customer group without stepping all over their ..... lips.

So no - it's not garbage in the context of the original poorly thought-out keyboard-mashing attempt to find some justification of why this change is a "good" change.

foxfour phrased something poorly and the meaning behind it is clear and unassailable, hence the persistent refusal to do anything but harp on the way the phrase could be misinterpreted

your point is bad, so you've got to resort to this. the clear meaning was that through api and third-party use you could gain an advantage absolutely unmatchable through in-game tools, it's like if the api exposed tower passwords


The entire point of out of game tools is to do something that in-game tools can't match. Like EFT. You cannot fit up ships at 0 cost experimentally in-game. It is unmatchable. Thanks for playing the non-sequitur game. The idea that 6 years ago a designer messed up and JUST NOW is getting around to 'fix' it is a whole load of word salad that does not accurately describe what is going on in its totality.

How does this proposed change factor into the future of W-space?
In what context is this actually a 'good' thing for W-space?
Is the NDA preventing disclosure of relevant material?

This reminds me of when players successfully mapped a portion of W-space using POS location data and that data was subsequently removed as a visible attribute in w-space. The idea of W-space being 'unknown' space was blown quite quickly out of the water. CCP Devs said HEY this isn't what we INTENDED to design in w-space and so deleted it post haste. This seems to me to be something similar. God forbid you move the w-space sleeper storyline further or encourage roleplay in W-space. We have next to 0 tools to begin with compared to K-space and now in comes a nerf.

I think it behooves CCP to explain their future design intent for W-space and I look forward to a rather extensive dev blog on this. Justification is required.
Zeras Allyndar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#363 - 2014-05-07 01:10:28 UTC
While I don't really expect my post to be read this far back in the thread, here goes anyway.

This information is currently key to generating WH content. It is not the only key to generating content. What will we do instead? We will either actively scout wormholes which requires us to actually play the game and not just hit Refresh on our Siggy windows, or we will roll our holes more often because it would be too time consuming to keep tabs on every hole in our current chain. This change will get more WH pilots actively playing EVE and looking for content rather than just sitting in a POS and waiting for someone to give them a free kill.

More pilots scouting means more scouts getting caught. More scouts getting caught means scouts don't fly alone any more, or they fly something that doesn't squish so easily. More scouts moving through wormholes and in larger fleets and shinier ships means we actively control our holes more. Coordinating hole control means we need more members in our corp and that means pulling new pilots into W-Space. Therefor removing kill stats on wormholes generates more content.

More rolling of inactive chains means more possibility of rolling into an active chain. How many times have you gotten kills while people were rolling? Get ready for that to happen 2x or 3x more often. Therefor removing kill stats on wormholes generates more content.

I wont claim that I have not relied on these stats to get kills before, or that I haven't sat in my POS and waited for someone to let me gank them but I do feel that this change is fair and justified.

ISD Ezwal: "Well, lets put it this way, if I would clean this thread by the forum rules, there would be very little left."
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#364 - 2014-05-07 01:37:21 UTC
Just wanted to mention a key difference between between wormhole space and null sec. Intel and combat in wormhole space happens at an accelerated pace. You don't have the luxury of scouting your neighbors for days to learn their habits, because they don't stay your neighbors. If you're going to commit to sit in a hole and watch it you need to have a good reason - aka some evidence of past activity.

This isn't just for large pvp corps. I have spent an entire week running solo surveillance on a wormhole corp (collecting intel, noting habits, times etc. "Spy stuff") simply because I saw a Chimera in a C2 and had evidence that they ran sites often. Anyone who says I didn't put effort into scouting for that kill is welcome to join me on my next 170 hour scanning/scouting/spying vigil. But the initial decision to stay was made based on information from the API. Without it, every system would look the same. A couple empty force fields that may or may not have been deserted for a month.

If you insist on removing it though, please find some way to compensate. 95% of wormhole dwellers use this information. Perhaps stick in some debris clouds that hang about for a few days after you salvage wrecks or something. We need to know if systems have been active, otherwise we're just sitting on our hands on the off-chance somebody logs in (statistically not likely).

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#365 - 2014-05-07 02:12:45 UTC
Zeras Allyndar wrote:
While I don't really expect my post to be read this far back in the thread, here goes anyway.

This information is currently key to generating WH content. It is not the only key to generating content. What will we do instead? We will either actively scout wormholes which requires us to actually play the game and not just hit Refresh on our Siggy windows, or we will roll our holes more often because it would be too time consuming to keep tabs on every hole in our current chain. This change will get more WH pilots actively playing EVE and looking for content rather than just sitting in a POS and waiting for someone to give them a free kill.


LOL, right.

Quote:
More pilots scouting means more scouts getting caught. More scouts getting caught means scouts don't fly alone any more, or they fly something that doesn't squish so easily. More scouts moving through wormholes and in larger fleets and shinier ships means we actively control our holes more. Coordinating hole control means we need more members in our corp and that means pulling new pilots into W-Space. Therefor removing kill stats on wormholes generates more content.


More rolling means more rolling means more rolling into more holes where people POS up more often and more balls get blue and more hours wasted doing menial singing.

roll, roll, roll your hole
gently down the chain
merrily, merrily, merrily
targets never seen

roll, roll, roll your hole
gently into null
merrily merrily merrily
life gets rather dull

roll, roll, roll your hole
go to lowsec you must
sadly, sadly, sadly
you all log off in disgust

Have you never done this?

Quote:
More rolling of inactive chains means more possibility of rolling into an active chain. How many times have you gotten kills while people were rolling?


That's a rhetorical question.

Quote:
Get ready for that to happen 2x or 3x more often. Therefor removing kill stats on wormholes generates more content.


Unproven hypothesis.


~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#366 - 2014-05-07 02:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nooonnnnnoooo notme
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This was looked at from a design point of view, and it was the design department that agreed to this. I did not just have an idea while standing in the shower and then decide to do it without first consulting others.


FoxFour can you go back to that part about getting ideas in the shower
Spillrag
Neurotoxin Control
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#367 - 2014-05-07 02:28:58 UTC
NPC kill statistics makes it possible for entities to see if another system is being actively used, if it is then we can assess whether or not it is worth forming people to attack said system, thus generating content. Removing this information because it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place means that we are suffering for someone else's mistake. Many wormhole corporations have come to rely on this information as a backbone of our gameplay and simply removing is a very large hit. NPC kill data drives content and increases the risk or living in wspace; simply put, it makes it possible to actively hunt people, thus making it riskier for living in some of the most profitable space.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#368 - 2014-05-07 02:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This was looked at from a design point of view, and it was the design department that agreed to this. I did not just have an idea while standing in the shower and then decide to do it without first consulting others.


FoxFour can you go back to that part about getting ideas in the shower



This man found the true nugget of gold in this entire thread of poo.

I won't deny participating in the poo flinging, which is why I must find inspiration in his ability to focus upon the important details of this discussion.

Spillrag wrote:
NPC kill statistics makes it possible for entities to see if another system is being actively used, if it is then we can assess whether or not it is worth forming people to attack said system, thus generating content. Removing this information because it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place means that we are suffering for someone else's mistake. Many wormhole corporations have come to rely on this information as a backbone of our gameplay and simply removing is a very large hit. NPC kill data drives content and increases the risk or living in wspace; simply put, it makes it possible to actively hunt people, thus making it riskier for living in some of the most profitable space.


The other way to assess whether a system is being actively used is to take a look around in it....

If all of the POS's are owned by a German corporation, and you are a primarily U.S. based corporation, chances are you won't find many targets there during your typical playing hours.

If there are 4 POS's offline and the 5th is owned by a 5 man corp, with two neutrals sitting inside the shields in indy ships, you've probably found a PI farm and won't see much of interest leave that POS.

If you roll into a system and find some people mining in a belt with no eyes on D-scan and no scary PvP fit corpmates waiting for something to happen, enjoy catching them with their pants down and teach them a lesson. It's a good lesson to learn.

If you roll into a system and the locals immediately spot you and everyone re-ships into a small PvP gang to meet you at the door, just go ahead and hide in your POS because you weren't looking for a fun and exciting fight anyways, just some easy fluff to pad your killboard.

I've seen more of the last scenario than I care to think about. All of you "content creators" in WH space need to get over this idea that you and your playstyle are a glorious gift to the Eve universe that can't be shunned in any way, and the habits that you have developed to facilitate your rinse and repeat gameplay should be safeguarded at all costs need to move on with your lives and grow as individuals.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#369 - 2014-05-07 03:42:58 UTC
Look at all these Goons and NPC corp alts in this thread

Shortly- Wormholers unanimously support this fix (this is not a change or tweak, just fixing an oversight). Statistics data like this should not be available in-game or out-of-game about wormholes, which is the exact same reason jump stats were removed.

What this does to carebears and the carebears who think that POS spinning and looking at a website for stats so they can finally form up and go ganking carebears is meaningful wormhole PVP is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
Crixalis Vemane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2014-05-07 03:49:07 UTC
Spillrag wrote:
NPC kill statistics makes it possible for entities to see if another system is being actively used



Quote:
NPC kill data... ...simply put, it makes it possible to actively hunt people


I am surprised to learn that people think that, and talk about, api stats as if it was the single lynchpin that allows pvp to happen in wormholes and to hunt people.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#371 - 2014-05-07 03:59:18 UTC
All this brave pvpers, names Ive never seen before, if u rly think that I would like to spend even more time to gather intel, hours by hours, days by days just to know habits and when they play- u are wrong. Even now we have rudiculously low percentage of successfull logoff traps becouse besides this intel we need to 1)have more or less same prime time 2) carebears actually farm this day 3) we have enough people online when they actually starts the farm 4) they don't have overwhelming reinforcements 5) and a lot of additional options what can stop us from proceeding operation. And even in this shape of things we spend days of just waiting and gathering intel, so if u wanna say that I have to play this game even more-I would say no. We all have families and real life, jobs and other interests besides eve, and change fundamental game mechanics in order to make me "really play the game" will not work, I would better change the game. And if u think that watching pos for days long gathering information about, while people just isk farming wspace- pvping in other places, if u rly think this game design is interesting for both sides, you are wrong. Make eve more interesting, create other aspects and methods for us, this is what drive people log in everyday, not just a shady hope to get the meat and sit in silence gather intel
Locke DieDrake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#372 - 2014-05-07 04:00:18 UTC
There is something deeply wrong when the rational intelligent discourse is coming from the Goons. (love you guys)

Seriously this is very weird though.

John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#373 - 2014-05-07 04:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: John Caldr
Flash Phoenix wrote:

Yes I read the post, and I do not care about the delay at all, real time or 30 days, I could care less. Once again, get in a ship and play the game and quit using a 3rd party program to do your game play for you.


Once again, NPC alt without real WH PVP or WH life experience talks about things he know nothing about.

Check this:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4560891#post4560891

And its just for one WH. We - monitor few dozens at the same time.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#374 - 2014-05-07 04:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
RudinV wrote:
All this brave pvpers, names Ive never seen before, if u rly think that I would like to spend even more time to gather intel, hours by hours, days by days just to know habits and when they play- u are wrong. Even now we have rudiculously low percentage of successfull logoff traps becouse besides this intel we need to 1)have more or less same prime time 2) carebears actually farm this day 3) we have enough people online when they actually starts the farm 4) they don't have overwhelming reinforcements 5) and a lot of additional options what can stop us from proceeding operation. And even in this shape of things we spend days of just waiting and gathering intel, so if u wanna say that I have to play this game even more-I would say no. We all have families and real life, jobs and other interests besides eve, and change fundamental game mechanics in order to make me "really play the game" will not work, I would better change the game. And if u think that watching pos for days long gathering information about, while people just isk farming wspace- pvping in other places, if u rly think this game design is interesting for both sides, you are wrong. Make eve more interesting, create other aspects and methods for us, this is what drive people log in everyday, not just a shady hope to get the meat and sit in silence gather intel



You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.

Why do you think your current procedures for operation are difficult, and getting more difficult as the game progresses?

I love these square peg in the round hole justifications...

Edit: To clarify, there are plenty of high isk kills to be had in WH space, the contradiction with the mechanics comes from the misconception that you are entitled to one every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#375 - 2014-05-07 04:15:09 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.

Why do you think your current procedures for operation are difficult, and getting more difficult as the game progresses?

I love these square peg in the round hole justifications...

becouse i think that 10+ hours for the game is more than enough. for me at least for sure
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#376 - 2014-05-07 04:17:29 UTC
RudinV wrote:
All this brave pvpers, names Ive never seen before, if u rly think that I would like to spend even more time to gather intel, hours by hours, days by days just to know habits and when they play- u are wrong. Even now we have rudiculously low percentage of successfull logoff traps becouse besides this intel we need to 1)have more or less same prime time 2) carebears actually farm this day 3) we have enough people online when they actually starts the farm 4) they don't have overwhelming reinforcements 5) and a lot of additional options what can stop us from proceeding operation. And even in this shape of things we spend days of just waiting and gathering intel, so if u wanna say that I have to play this game even more-I would say no. We all have families and real life, jobs and other interests besides eve, and change fundamental game mechanics in order to make me "really play the game" will not work, I would better change the game. And if u think that watching pos for days long gathering information about, while people just isk farming wspace- pvping in other places, if u rly think this game design is interesting for both sides, you are wrong. Make eve more interesting, create other aspects and methods for us, this is what drive people log in everyday, not just a shady hope to get the meat and sit in silence gather intel


This is beyond ******** on so many levels that it deserves to be QFP

You start from faulty premises and go on making a chain of wrong conclusions, and somehow still manage to land in an irrational statement that doesn't even have anything to do with what you said earlier.

RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#377 - 2014-05-07 04:24:12 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:

This is beyond ******** on so many levels that it deserves to be QFP

You start from faulty premises and go on making a chain of wrong conclusions, and somehow still manage to land in an irrational statement that doesn't even have anything to do with what you said earlier.


another noname lowsec brawler in the thread. do u rly understand what u post about or its just random words what u want to type this morning?Lol
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#378 - 2014-05-07 04:25:25 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.

Why do you think your current procedures for operation are difficult, and getting more difficult as the game progresses?

I love these square peg in the round hole justifications...

becouse i think that 10+ hours for the game is more than enough. for me at least for sure



You spent 10 hours to get a kill that otherwise probably wouldn't have happened. That's great.

That doesn't mean that it was 10 hours well spent, or that you couldn't have gotten some kills of equal or greater value in 5 hours elsewhere. It just means you spent 10 hours forcing a result out of unnecessarily difficult circumstances.

Great job, you put a lot of work into doing something not many other people would do. But the point still remains. The NPC kill data is not essential to what you do, it's just been the most accessible source of information that you have grown to rely on, and that source of information was not intended to exist. There are many other sources of information which function just as well, so maybe it's time you taught your scouts how to use them.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#379 - 2014-05-07 04:29:54 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
RudinV wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.

Why do you think your current procedures for operation are difficult, and getting more difficult as the game progresses?

I love these square peg in the round hole justifications...

becouse i think that 10+ hours for the game is more than enough. for me at least for sure



You spent 10 hours to get a kill that otherwise probably wouldn't have happened. That's great.

That doesn't mean that it was 10 hours well spent, or that you couldn't have gotten some kills of equal or greater value in 5 hours elsewhere. It just means you spent 10 hours forcing a result out of unnecessarily difficult circumstances.

Great job, you put a lot of work into doing something not many other people would do. But the point still remains. The NPC kill data is not essential to what you do, it's just been the most accessible source of information that you have grown to rely on, and that source of information was not intended to exist. There are many other sources of information which function just as well, so maybe it's time you taught your scouts how to use them.

ok, let me simplify even more...now we have to spend X time for the operation, after the "fix" it will be 10X.
No1 will do this on purpose, removing content is not good, and i can rly explain u why, but i have a train to Bordeaux in 40 mins so mb later. Anyway guys, besides happy carebears this will not bring anything new.
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#380 - 2014-05-07 04:34:27 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.


You seems to misunderstand things. WH were designed as a high-profit high-risk environment thats provides consistent content. And high-risk means its EASY to get killed.