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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Zorena
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#301 - 2014-05-06 22:57:07 UTC
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv


Just v0v, you use your web browser widget thingie to tell you when to login, I don't particularly understand all the ins and out of wormholes yet but I know from talking with my corp mates is that there is this looming threat of wh-space is becoming blobs just like null sec. And like many pointed out the fault in the api showing information out of game, that it shouldn't have made more opportunities to make pvp happen.. Then again I think there is something wrong with the game when ppl spend 50% playing dota/lol instead of doing something in eve, eve is played like something you do in the background.


anyhow a newcomer pov from wh space.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#302 - 2014-05-06 22:58:42 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
If the SDE is there to provide all static data, why isn't moon mineral distribution part of it?


Because CCP can decide what goes into the SDE and what doesn't. Just like they can decide what dynamic data is displayed by the API.

If you want moon mineral distribution data, scan the moons like everybody else.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2014-05-06 23:00:11 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?


No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.

Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun:

Please tell me more about your experience within WH space

Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online.

And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#304 - 2014-05-06 23:02:42 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:

Please tell me more about your experience within WH space

Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online.

And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point

Not really. Gee, why wouldn't I want to supply my PvP pilot names? It's almost like that breaches opsec.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-05-06 23:04:12 UTC
it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#306 - 2014-05-06 23:05:09 UTC
So many people hooked on the free intel crack they can't see past the end of their pipe.... P

Guys... Some players out there, they enjoy reconnaissance... They think that outsmarting people who think they're in turn outsmarting the scouts is fun...

You likely already have some people like this nearby, in your corporation, who have maybe grown a bit restless because their job isn't as fulfilling as it once was, or may be growing complacent. You yourself may be also becoming restless and/or complacent. You may be looking for something to bring that edge back into Eve, give you the feeling that you are doing something nobody or very few people have the sand to do, to put the twang of excitement back in the air (Pod-Goo)....

Try running your own intel, and see if that doesn't help.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-05-06 23:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiwha
Querns wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering.

Not an option -- this information is unavailable in the eve client.




Well, I guess that kinda shoots down the NPC kill data argument too.



I KNOW! Lets add forced local to WH space so that pvp'ers can easily tell when other people are in a system! I mean, they're going to scan things down anyway, lets just cut to the chase so we can have content faster!

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#308 - 2014-05-06 23:10:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents



The most honest post in this entire thread.

I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#309 - 2014-05-06 23:12:07 UTC
x-posting from previous thread:

Alundil wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So lets answer a few questions:

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:

Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client.

Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then.


Then by all means place 'your money where your mouth is' and break all api based market and industrial and PI tools under the same logic since that they confer great advantage for those with the ability to use them over those without said ability.

It is exactly the same thing.


And then wait for the overwhelming rage from .01 marketeers and industrialists who rely on oog 3rd Party tools in order to succeed. Or the those doing the null market seeding required to live out there and/or stage for battle. All of it is done with oog 3rd Party tools because either the ingame functionality offered by the client is terrible or not even there.

Cache scraping for industry purposes is, at the very least, as damaging to your supposed "ideal" game (where no one uses anything that the client doesn't provide directly) as delayed kill info via api is. Yet in those threads (iirc) it was stated that CCPs stance on tools that offer QOL were acceptable (mainly because some devs know that they are necessary due to nothing other than EVE itself).

It seems as if w-space (the best balanced place in EVE) has been getting shat on steadily since Odyssey and it's not appreciated.

The CSM has struggled to represent wormhole players since its inception and the changes placed upon us are perfect evidence to that fact. You (plural non-specific) do not take our thoughts into consideration and pay lip service to our critiques and suggestions time and again because it's not what "you" (plural non-specific) have already decided you are going to do.

That is how our wh --> csm/cpp interactions appear to proceed.

I'm right behind you
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#310 - 2014-05-06 23:14:21 UTC
Alundil wrote:
.

your entire garbage post does not distinguish between "data not provided by the client ever" and "data that people prefer to have provided out of game for analysis by a third party tool"

the first is what is being eliminated, the second is what the api is for

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#311 - 2014-05-06 23:16:51 UTC
like seriously an entire post on "other people like to use third party tools how dare you ever alter third party tools without breaking everyones"

yes that's why an api exists, that is also why some data and not all data is exposed

we in nullsec used to have api alerts for tcus being dropped, ccp realized boy was that a mistake and axed it

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#312 - 2014-05-06 23:20:02 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Andski wrote:
it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents



The most honest post in this entire thread.

I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit

Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."

Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"

Literally

L.
O.
L.

I'm right behind you
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#313 - 2014-05-06 23:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
I seriousily don't get this raving about 'instant perfect intel'. You know what NPC shows us? Activity. Yep thats it, theres no magic button which allows us to see what ships are in system, where the POS's are and stront levels etc. It helps us Wormholers effectively analyze a chain and think if we will get any content from this chain, don't forget we have already scanned the system in detail.

"Hmmmm there are no kill recorded in the past 3 days in this chain apart from in one system but they look like they are AU TZ compared to our EU TZ, lets roll and find something else"

Thats what being able to see NPC AND PvP kills are used for. Its also the reason why we would be fine if they just delayed the API time to 3 hours, 6 hours whatever. As its the history not current status of the system that interests us (in the majority of cases).

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#314 - 2014-05-06 23:22:10 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."

Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"

Literally

L.
O.
L.


so clearly we have a hidden agenda that we're discussing in illuminati, sneering about how we're pulling the wool over everyone's heads

please tell us your crackpot theory about our hidden agenda

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-05-06 23:22:55 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
I seriousily don't get this raving about 'instant perfect intel'. You know what NPC shows us? Activity. Yep thats it, theres no magic button which allows us to see what ships are in system, where the POS's are and stront levels etc. It helps us Wormholers effectively analyze a chain and think, don't forget we have already scanned the system in detail.


"the data isn't that granular so it's okay"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#316 - 2014-05-06 23:23:53 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Andski wrote:
it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents



The most honest post in this entire thread.

I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit

Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."

Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"

Literally

L.
O.
L.


This would be true, except we have this curious property of always being right.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-05-06 23:24:09 UTC
"x number of NPCs have died in this system in the last hour/24 hours" is pretty good ******* intel that you can get in w-space without even getting into the system

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2014-05-06 23:25:51 UTC
really just add wormhole stabilizers and this whole problem of finding fights goes away

maybe to prevent them from being knocked down by off-tz entities you could add a reinforcement timer to the stabilizer, just a short one of course (no more than 2-3 days)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#319 - 2014-05-06 23:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
Please point to me where you don't even have to go into the system? Also how is that good intel? All it tells you is that the system is active, you don't know anything else other than that. And even then it can be wrong.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#320 - 2014-05-06 23:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Andski wrote:
"x number of NPCs have died in this system in the last hour/24 hours" is pretty good ******* intel that you can get in w-space without even getting into the system



48 hours.

Edit: Oh, and it's organized every hour, so you know exactly when the ratting started, when it peaked, and when it ended. There are also some tools which allow you to pull together weeks worth of this stuff. Compare it with another out of game source of information like a killboard and you're golden.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.