These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#281 - 2014-05-06 22:20:22 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.

Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.

Unfortunately for you, the Static Data Export is not beholden to the same standards as the API. The API is the only one of these two that is required to only expose information that is also available in the client.

Also, even if they did acquiesce to your request, it's not like it would change anything -- the cat is already out of the bag, in the context of capital geography. It doesn't change very much.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2014-05-06 22:21:33 UTC
Longinius Spear wrote:
its sad that the counter to this change come from the established wormhole community. While the people for it, simply have ISK grinding alts seeded throughout w-space and who post with mains in null sec.

That is essentially the break down of the past 10 pages.

Not sure if CCP is even listening anymore but instead of following some 'vision' of wormhole space should be, they should support the established community who has put wormhole space on the map time and time again vs the people who simply consume it for ISK, bringing nothing.




Ok I laughed. "on the map" lololol

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2014-05-06 22:26:13 UTC
Pasting my post from the other thread


Let me try and give you a constructive post with reasons.

1 - This data can be used by someone interested doing log off traps, as it can give us information as to when the residents are active and can plan accordingly

2 - Farmers (IE people who's sole purpose in WH space is to grind sites and nothing else) already have it too easy with instant sigs showing up which has already impacted our section of space greatly and already given a significant advantage to the defender for no work what so ever. I'd challenge you to say at least this is fair in the repect that everyone can see this information and that the defender can always change up the times they do their activities as to confuse the attacker.

3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community and continue to farm with even greater security. This is something that we (the broader community of WH space) will not want.

4 - Seeing a blip of activity on one of the 20+ wormholes we have scanned and have connected to us promotes activity within our corporation. Meaning our members will actively look for the source of that activity which usually results in PvP

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#284 - 2014-05-06 22:26:53 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.

Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.


This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API.

On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers.

These are two different things.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#285 - 2014-05-06 22:28:10 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.

Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.


This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API.

On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers.

These are two different things.


Win.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#286 - 2014-05-06 22:28:25 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasting my post from the other thread
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community

What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#287 - 2014-05-06 22:31:00 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Flash Phoenix wrote:

Yes, that right there, why use a program to avoid playing the game? smooth way to pass by the actual action of PLAYING the game, come on, get in a ship and play EVE, not some third party program.


You did not read his post I guess. API info is delayed. Already. By about 2 hours+ - dotlan/static mapper, and by about an hour+ - direct api. Nobody using it instead of live scout to get real-time information. Its just a very, very important indicator for possible PVP. And we dont mind for it to be delayed more. We just need it to exist, this way or another.


Yes I read the post, and I do not care about the delay at all, real time or 30 days, I could care less. Once again, get in a ship and play the game and quit using a 3rd party program to do your game play for you.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2014-05-06 22:32:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasting my post from the other thread
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community

What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space?


I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator.

Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Napoleon Aldent
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#289 - 2014-05-06 22:33:27 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.

Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.


This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API.

On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers.

These are two different things.


If the SDE is there to provide all static data, why isn't moon mineral distribution part of it?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#290 - 2014-05-06 22:40:15 UTC
Your sig marks you as a conspiracy theorist, btw. A bad one. That comment reinforces it
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#291 - 2014-05-06 22:41:05 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasting my post from the other thread
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community

What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space?


I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator.

Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
G0hme
Illusion of Flight
#292 - 2014-05-06 22:47:25 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasting my post from the other thread


Let me try and give you a constructive post with reasons.

1 - This data can be used by someone interested doing log off traps, as it can give us information as to when the residents are active and can plan accordingly{/quote]


First of all, anything that encourage logging off, is hands down, bad gameplay. If you want to know when people are active, put an alt in there, watch what they do an plan accordingly (creates content)

Quote:
2 - Farmers (IE people who's sole purpose in WH space is to grind sites and nothing else) already have it too easy with instant sigs showing up which has already impacted our section of space greatly and already given a significant advantage to the defender for no work what so ever. I'd challenge you to say at least this is fair in the repect that everyone can see this information and that the defender can always change up the times they do their activities as to confuse the attacker.


You do realize that CCP have already purposed delayed sig spawn right? And what is really the difference from the Overlay scanner to having a pilot click Scan every 12 sec other than the push of a button? Thats right, nothing. One might say that a passive system is more likely to encourage people to be lazy.

Quote:
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community and continue to farm with even greater security. This is something that we (the broader community of WH space) will not want.


So getting more farmers in Wspace to gank is suddenly a bad thing? Such a thing should be a reason to celebrate. If thats the "broader" inbred circlejerk community you represent, then no wonder Wspace is in such a shite state.

Quote:
4 - Seeing a blip of activity on one of the 20+ wormholes we have scanned and have connected to us promotes activity within our corporation. Meaning our members will actively look for the source of that activity which usually results in PvP


And why is it exactly that your corp cant do that with your own eyes? Doesnt that promote activity for your corp aswell?

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2014-05-06 22:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sith1s Spectre
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Pasting my post from the other thread
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community

What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space?


I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator.

Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?


No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.

I also feel entitled to have our (the people who live in WH space) thoughts and considerations taken seriously, not just mentioned on page six in a back end thread. How it looked was we've decided to change this, change my mind if you can...

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#294 - 2014-05-06 22:48:40 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?


No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.

Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#295 - 2014-05-06 22:48:45 UTC
If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#296 - 2014-05-06 22:50:47 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering.

Not an option -- this information is unavailable in the eve client.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2014-05-06 22:51:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?


No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.

Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun:

Please tell me more about your experience within WH space

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#298 - 2014-05-06 22:51:38 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:

No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.


i too believe that when a broken thing is in the game for any length of time i am entitled to it

please to be returning aoe titans

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#299 - 2014-05-06 22:55:50 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:

I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?


No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.

Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun:

Please tell me more about your experience within WH space

Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
#300 - 2014-05-06 22:57:00 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:
"oh noez! Getting easy risk free kills might suddenly require some effort?!?"
WTF is wrong with you people? If you want free intel and risk free PvP go back to k-space. You don't belong to w-space!
API powered logoff traps are the most care-bearish sh't I've ever come across in w-space.


This pretty much sums it up. I've waded through posts across many forums and I have not seen one actual argument or valid point why this change shouldn't occur, other than "we need it to find fights", which is demonstrably false. It's sad really, I thought you guys "the will of Bob", but apparently you can only do the will of Bob with your precious API data.

Honestly, API data is a WH crutch that facilitates multiple log off alts that do nothing until data pops up on these apps. I would much rather do good old fashioned intel myself - there is simply way more satisfaction you get out of the hunt. The only reason I use 3-4 web tools now is because I would be at a disadvantage not to with my ganking competition.

I would much rather have the API taken away than implement Fozzie's idea of WH sigs that don't show up for 5 minutes on dscan or unless x amount of mass have gone through. I think not having an accurate dscan and missing signatures is way more game breaking than API data not available for WH space.

I approve this change, I'm not even on the fence about it. I pvp in WHs, I am not looking for a safe 'care bear haven', which is also a myth. If anything, this change works both ways: day trippers will not see the 3-4 ships I've killed in my camped wormhole and think it's safe to deploy.

If you really can't find fights without API data, then I will scan down the U210 for you so you can leave and join faction warfare. It's guaranteed fights.