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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

First post First post
Author
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#241 - 2014-05-06 20:53:19 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.


Not having enough WH PVP experience and playing in prime time, you see just a tip of the iceberg.
G0hme
Perkone
Caldari State
#242 - 2014-05-06 20:58:35 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
G0hme wrote:
NOTHING changes for the groups that are only in Wspace to run sites. The risk is still the same, the threat for them is still the same.


https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_pilot.php?id=RUSED+RM

any related like this proves you wrong, instantly



First off, what you said made no sense at all.

But I can definitely see how this change can cripple a One-Trick-Pony corp like QEX.

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.

Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#243 - 2014-05-06 20:58:56 UTC
While we're at it, can we please also remove local from kspace?Bear
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#244 - 2014-05-06 21:01:50 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:

I think that book you missed was "How to read (for dummies)".

My "personal isk faucet" is in no way under threat. As I said, most large groups will barely notice any differences.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of words that say nothing interesting. OFC one cannot say that a specific change will have exact effects, but we can, and will, discuss if a given change helps or hurts certain playstyles. In this case, it is quite clearly all about folks that would like less risk to their PVE in w-space. I think in general, PVE in C5/C6 w-space is already less risky than it should be, and this change reduces that risk further.


So after the "think of the children" we are down to Risk:Reward balance. If the API perfect intel doesn't exist what would you like to see as far as ingame mechanics to duplicate this?


Hmm, might be fun trying to talk to the other goon troll I guess....

Firstly, I am not sure where you are seeing any change in my message. I have been pretty consistent. I am against this change because it makes it harder to kill people farming in high class wormholes. People farming in those holes are in general bad for w-space. They reduce profit for all, but mostly for lower class wormholes. They don't provide PVP content, just the rare gank.

As for a solution, I would like to see the difficulty of C5/C6 capital escalations increased. It should take 8-10 actual people paying actual attention to make 600-800 mil off a set of capital escalations. The simplest way to do this would probably be to nerf dreads against sleepers, but there are other solutions that would work. If this was done, farming would require a larger time and manpower commitment, which would require a larger vulnerable presence in the hole.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that you shouldn't be able to run C5/C6 capital escalations without having to really live in w-space. That means you should be vulnerable to the same invasions and whatnot as those of us that do put in the effort to make w-space our home.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#245 - 2014-05-06 21:03:45 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.


Not having enough WH PVP experience and playing in prime time, you see just a tip of the iceberg.


I can see how being in a less active timezone would suck, however, looking at your killboard it would seem that you gank stuff around the clock. So how do you do it? Alarmclock or something?
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#246 - 2014-05-06 21:08:35 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
Rhes wrote:
MaxDEL wrote:
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry?

Goddamn, you're everywhere.

Eve is Goons.

Not Goons generally speaking, I just mean you.

Up in my captn's quarters, stoppin' me from gettin out. And now up in my wormholes, nerfin' up my ****? X

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#247 - 2014-05-06 21:09:06 UTC
G0hme wrote:

First off, what you said made no sense at all.
But I can definitely see how this change can cripple a One-Trick-Pony corp like QEX.


You said it will not affect carebears and I linked your guys already affected.
And, pls, remind yourself about your one-trick-bored attitude with slowcats and RR MSes, or ishtars, when you'll be in such fleet next time.

It ok, I understand that as a valid pray, like most of WH carebears, you want WH PVP entities out despite the impact on WH PVP and EVE economy this change will have.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#248 - 2014-05-06 21:10:10 UTC
Two step wrote:

Firstly, I am not sure where you are seeing any change in my message. I have been pretty consistent. I am against this change because it makes it harder to kill people farming in high class wormholes. People farming in those holes are in general bad for w-space. They reduce profit for all, but mostly for lower class wormholes. They don't provide PVP content, just the rare gank.

So, can we shorten this and say that you think there should be a minimum profit potential for simply existing in wormhole space, presumably in accordance with whatever social norms you've set up?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#249 - 2014-05-06 21:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
Two step wrote:

As for a solution, I would like to see the difficulty of C5/C6 capital escalations increased. It should take 8-10 actual people paying actual attention to make 600-800 mil off a set of capital escalations. The simplest way to do this would probably be to nerf dreads against sleepers, but there are other solutions that would work. If this was done, farming would require a larger time and manpower commitment, which would require a larger vulnerable presence in the hole.


You do this and you loose A LOT of meat to incursions, fw and stuff. Clearly, there are better ways: e.g., buff income for lower-class wormholes, remove nanoribbons drops from sleepless guardians (removing nanoribbons from the loot table should be ridiculously easy to do for ccp), maybe even tune down site spawn or remove respawns of escalation rats (I guess large corporations like yours won't like that either ;))
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2014-05-06 21:11:47 UTC
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:

I think that book you missed was "How to read (for dummies)".

My "personal isk faucet" is in no way under threat. As I said, most large groups will barely notice any differences.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of words that say nothing interesting. OFC one cannot say that a specific change will have exact effects, but we can, and will, discuss if a given change helps or hurts certain playstyles. In this case, it is quite clearly all about folks that would like less risk to their PVE in w-space. I think in general, PVE in C5/C6 w-space is already less risky than it should be, and this change reduces that risk further.


So after the "think of the children" we are down to Risk:Reward balance. If the API perfect intel doesn't exist what would you like to see as far as ingame mechanics to duplicate this?


Hmm, might be fun trying to talk to the other goon troll I guess....

Firstly, I am not sure where you are seeing any change in my message. I have been pretty consistent. I am against this change because it makes it harder to kill people farming in high class wormholes. People farming in those holes are in general bad for w-space. They reduce profit for all, but mostly for lower class wormholes. They don't provide PVP content, just the rare gank.

As for a solution, I would like to see the difficulty of C5/C6 capital escalations increased. It should take 8-10 actual people paying actual attention to make 600-800 mil off a set of capital escalations. The simplest way to do this would probably be to nerf dreads against sleepers, but there are other solutions that would work. If this was done, farming would require a larger time and manpower commitment, which would require a larger vulnerable presence in the hole.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that you shouldn't be able to run C5/C6 capital escalations without having to really live in w-space. That means you should be vulnerable to the same invasions and whatnot as those of us that do put in the effort to make w-space our home.


Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am trolling you.

This seems an odd mechanic change though. This has nothing to do with the PVP change unless you factor in time to complete making them more vulnerable to PVP? I mean I am not against buffing PVE risk to make WH's more risky but it seems like much of the pushback on this change was because it was nerfing PVP.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#251 - 2014-05-06 21:16:05 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:

I can see how being in a less active timezone would suck, however, looking at your killboard it would seem that you gank stuff around the clock. So how do you do it? Alarmclock or something?


Yes, we have scouts and alarm clock/sms/phone our pilots when action starts.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#252 - 2014-05-06 21:19:38 UTC
This change only removes NPC kills in wormholes, but we keep our PC kills?

As a wormhole resident who has scouted some systems for days to learn about player habits and setup a gank, I approve.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#253 - 2014-05-06 21:24:26 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:

I can see how being in a less active timezone would suck, however, looking at your killboard it would seem that you gank stuff around the clock. So how do you do it? Alarmclock or something?


Yes, we have scouts and alarm clock/sms/phone our pilots when action starts.


Well I guess that's some admirable level of dedication Pirate
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#254 - 2014-05-06 21:24:45 UTC
Residual background radiation in the whole system, deteriorating over time.

Whenever a sleeper drone dies, their exploding core increases this background radiation - depending on the sleeper drone's size.

Ship sensors can measure that radiation's level during a system scan - cloak interferes with the radiation sensors, so this can only be done uncloaked.


Given useful parameters, this could give passing scouts an indication of recent sleeper activity. even when wrecks are already gone. Activity patterns could still be created, however, that would have to happen based on scout data instead of API analysis.


G0hme
Perkone
Caldari State
#255 - 2014-05-06 21:26:32 UTC
Two step wrote:
Capital Escalation


You were at the roundtable at FF13, weren't you?

Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually.

But indeed, C5/C6 should be a lot harder. With Kspace NPCs receiving Sleeper AI, they are too similar to offer Wspace any uniqueness at all.

Dreads are in my opinion, the cancer of wspace. Don't get me wrong I love capital warfare, but Dreads are an uncontrolled limitless force multiplier in a mass limited environment. Best shown in the resident strongholds of some of the larger Wspace entities. Carriers aswell, but way more limited as you eventually reach a threshold of where the amount of reps far exceeds what is required and is therefore not as powerful as the powerprojection of dreads.

Ofcource I realize it would never happen, but a rejuvenated Wspace would possibly need atleast Dreads removed completely, or rendered useless.

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#256 - 2014-05-06 21:29:50 UTC
G0hme wrote:
Two step wrote:
Capital Escalation


You were at the roundtable at FF13, weren't you?

Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually.

But indeed, C5/C6 should be a lot harder. With Kspace NPCs receiving Sleeper AI, they are too similar to offer Wspace any uniqueness at all.

Dreads are in my opinion, the cancer of wspace. Don't get me wrong I love capital warfare, but Dreads are an uncontrolled limitless force multiplier in a mass limited environment. Best shown in the resident strongholds of some of the larger Wspace entities. Carriers aswell, but way more limited as you eventually reach a threshold of where the amount of reps far exceeds what is required and is therefore not as powerful as the powerprojection of dreads.

Ofcource I realize it would never happen, but a rejuvenated Wspace would possibly need atleast Dreads removed completely, or rendered useless.

Make sleepers immune to webs. There, I solved capital escalations.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#257 - 2014-05-06 21:31:47 UTC
G0hme wrote:
Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually.


Could you please elaborate on that? Or is this all that he said (obv I wasn't there ;))
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2014-05-06 21:33:08 UTC
Cue Who wrote:
The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.




So now your going to have to roam and RISK your ships to find those care bear PvE players :)
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#259 - 2014-05-06 21:34:39 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:

Could you please elaborate on that? Or is this all that he said (obv I wasn't there ;))


Originally, capital escalations were added there to PREVENT capital ships usage, not to ENCOURAGE them Big smile
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#260 - 2014-05-06 21:46:39 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D



Is it possible to time-delay the data (by 30 days?) so that it's still useful for long-term research/analysis? Perhaps if a time-delay change is agreeable, jump data could be put back into the API as well?


The only idea I can think of for adding the data to the client would be to make a wormhole map to put it on (they already have set XYZ coordinates) and for pilots that have gone between one or more wormholes, link them in a way similar to how nullsec jump bridges are plotted on the map). The problem with this would be determining when these 'connections' should disappear: at downtime? when the holes collapse (too much information IMO)? or have them update between downtimes whenever a corporation or alliance member warps to said hole/bookmark and, if it's gone, remove it from said corporation/alliance wormhole map?