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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2014-05-06 20:00:21 UTC
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.



For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011

So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-05-06 20:01:28 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.


"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP

I disagree. This is more of those weird social norms to which wormhole dwellers subscribe bleeding into objective game balance discussion. Sure, wormhole space is Shoot To Kill space, with no server-generated consequence for the action (aside from some logoff timers,) but that does not somehow necessitate that the game to cater to either side.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
War Fairy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2014-05-06 20:01:38 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...


Yes it is. It's in the map.
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#204 - 2014-05-06 20:02:12 UTC
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#205 - 2014-05-06 20:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv


Maybe you're doing wormholes wrong then. If I want to monitor hole activity I'll just put some cloakys on our holes and tab in when I hear some activation.

Zero delay, way better ;)
Saavik Ambraelle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#206 - 2014-05-06 20:05:23 UTC
So what this is essentially about is making wormhole space safer for carebears.

Intoxication is the most effective of warp scramblers.
Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
#207 - 2014-05-06 20:06:05 UTC
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.


This. I know many others disagree, but for me, when pvp/carebear hunting in Wspace, having free intel available about whether a system is active or not took alot of the fun and mystery of 'hunting' carebears in wspace out of the whole experience. Wspace should be a dark area, devoid of the intel comforts, such as local, being able to view system stats falls under the same catagory for me. The more mysterious wspace is, the closer it gets to delivering that true feeling of deep space.

Sure it may make pveing easier, and that's a good thing, the safer they feel...the better! Twisted

Dear lord, please help me deal with the insufferable....
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2014-05-06 20:06:26 UTC
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv


So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#209 - 2014-05-06 20:06:32 UTC
When you're using it to passive intel your own close knit group, it says something about whether it is OP
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#210 - 2014-05-06 20:07:21 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.



For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011

So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others.

Ships killed per 24 hours is not necessarily indicative of whether or not the chain of wormholes contains a ravening band of marauders. (read: not the "marauder" T2 battleship.) By the admission of several posters in the thread, most of wormhole PvP happens due to rolling holes and attacking in the home systems of the PvE groups, not by inciting fights in the home system of the marauders. You can't use the API to divine where these home systems are due to this, and a PvE group is highly disincentivized from rolling their own holes to look for the marauders.

The advantage remains with the marauders, exclusively.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2014-05-06 20:08:33 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
Rhes wrote:
MaxDEL wrote:
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry?

Goddamn, you're everywhere.

Eve is Goons.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Alundil
Rolled Out
#212 - 2014-05-06 20:09:01 UTC
Saavik Ambraelle wrote:
So what this is essentially about is making wormhole space safer for carebears.

Basically.... Yes.

I'm right behind you
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2014-05-06 20:09:19 UTC
Querns wrote:

I disagree.


You see, you cant have cake and eat it too.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-05-06 20:09:56 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.


"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP


"Groups only looking for PvE" should be able to go anywhere they want if they accept the risks

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alundil
Rolled Out
#215 - 2014-05-06 20:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Querns wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.



For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011

So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others.

Ships killed per 24 hours is not necessarily indicative of whether or not the chain of wormholes contains a ravening band of marauders. (read: not the "marauder" T2 battleship.) By the admission of several posters in the thread, most of wormhole PvP happens due to rolling holes and attacking in the home systems of the PvE groups, not by inciting fights in the home system of the marauders. You can't use the API to divine where these home systems are due to this, and a PvE group is highly disincentivized from rolling their own holes to look for the marauders.

The advantage remains with the marauders, exclusively.

We routinely fight when we roll into another known wh groups home system. Or when we find them in chain. However RNG is RNG and we can't rely on lady luck always providing us a welcome mat into other known/established PvP groups.

I'm right behind you
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#216 - 2014-05-06 20:12:05 UTC
Aryth wrote:
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv


So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you?


Not sure what you mean by that, my organization PVE's about... once a month if that, generally we just don't, we are purely a PVP outfit. We simply don't want to get a HIC or hole rolling BS stuck on an EOL hole we know nothing about, so instead we go play something else until it pops and then we go roaming. Its a matter of time, we're all limited in our game play time, get about 3-4 hours a couple times a week, so we maximize our time, and do not specifically focus on EVE. We prefer EVE, but if there's a chance one of the 4 of us will get stuck in an EOL hole while trying to roll it, the night is shot waiting for them to get back, so we don't bother. Its not about risk, its about limited time.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#217 - 2014-05-06 20:12:21 UTC
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv

Wait, that's incredible... this could be a Windows gadget that will monitor a wormhole in near real-time, and you won't even have to log...

It could be made into a smartphone app, even, and you won't even need to be at a computer.

Wait, wait... Foxfour I change my mind, keep it the way it is!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-05-06 20:12:48 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Querns wrote:

I disagree.


You see, you cant have cake and eat it too.

I'm not sure to what you refer. You'll have to be more specific.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#219 - 2014-05-06 20:14:05 UTC
Also I'm lawlin at "we demand you leave it the way it is so that it remains easy for us to kick out farmers, because wormholes aren't for making isk (and those damn farmers drive down the prices of sleeper loot which affects us when we farm)"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2014-05-06 20:14:19 UTC
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
Aryth wrote:
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:
We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv


So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you?


Not sure what you mean by that, my organization PVE's about... once a month if that, generally we just don't, we are purely a PVP outfit. We simply don't want to get a HIC or hole rolling BS stuck on an EOL hole we know nothing about, so instead we go play something else until it pops and then we go roaming. Its a matter of time, we're all limited in our game play time, get about 3-4 hours a couple times a week, so we maximize our time, and do not specifically focus on EVE. We prefer EVE, but if there's a chance one of the 4 of us will get stuck in an EOL hole while trying to roll it, the night is shot waiting for them to get back, so we don't bother. Its not about risk, its about limited time.


Oh I follow your point. You just don't equate time loss to risk when it is. I understand why you don't like this for your edge case.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.