Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Wow this is pathetically terrible. And i'm sorrry but I am not buying the arguement about it being helpful for only 1 side, every decent WH group uses these out of game tools because there are no in game tools what so ever. It will make log off traps less likely since you'll no longer be able to see who is an active corp and who is not, reducing PvE risk in WH's is just a bad bad idea.

Also don't forget the information provided by the API's is at least 1 hour out of date. So its best use is to find out the 'active' time period of the connected group and if they could provide any content. We already do enough in W-space to find content and this just makes it alot harder, don't forget as well that any group who leaves their chain open and starts PvE'ing without closing their entrances deserves to die and there is no exception to this!

When CCP actually decides to make some decent friggin tools for W-space in game and take a look at the current shite mechanics then they can start looking at removing the API's. I bet the Devs touching this have not taken part in any PvP WH activity recently.

Going to start with your points about information in the API that is not in the client.

POS Hangers: This is only because of bad UI and POS code. As far as we are concerned, the contents should be.
POS Fuel: Same as above

The difference between the above and this change is in the above scenario due to whatever development reasons you have to go to the POS to check those things. There is no design reason for it and if given the development time we would like those features in the client. Those features get a low priority from development though because tools exist outside the game to do it.

So the information you talk about is available in the client, you have to go and get it, but given the chance we would fix that. See POCOs and how you can config them and not have to be near them. We are big fans of that.

In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.

Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.

I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today.

This! Great change

I welcome the removal of Information from the Client and API. Many times when Scouting wormholes it's just simple pull up info in Third party Program Know which area to drop my alt in and at what time to do it. I can tell what times they are on the most often and set ganks up that way. This entire change will actually Make having to be at the PC a thing, to actually sit in a Wormhole and Jot down The forces I see on Dscan and overall feel more like a PVPer and Not a Pubbie with a 3rd party Tool. Do it! WSpace is supposed to be Elite space, I am all for removal of info and the making it an even more hardcore area!

CCPFoxFour,

Let me just clarify a few things as to why us WH pvp entities have a problem with this.

Most of the time, when we've had our static open for a while, we end up with quite a "chain" (basically a long line of WHs connected to each other) that is somewhat difficult to constantly monitor. While this nerf would make that an issue, that isn't our main problem.

The problem we have is, at present, carebearing in wspace is far too safe/secure. Right now, it's almost impossible to actually catch carebears by rolling into their system. The second you initiate warp to your side of the WH, a new anom pops up on their (slightly overpowered auto dscan tool). This alerts them that it's time to leave the site. All capitals immediately cancel whatever siege or triage they're involved in, and promptly refit to stabs to warp back to the "safety" of their POS.

Unless you happen to roll into someone who just started their siege cycle, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to land tackle. When we go to jump into a WH, we DON'T know if anyone is in there, we DON'T know if the residents are even running sites (should they exist), and we DON'T know where they are even if they do happen to be running sites.

I understand that you have a problem with us having real-time info, or that our internally developed tools are too powerful, and perhaps that does give us a slight advantage. The problem we have is that is our ONLY advantage at present.

The only truly consistent way of being able to kill competent WH bearing groups is through login trap mechanics - aka by taking the time and effort to actually move capitals and subcaps in, log them off, and then patiently wait for said groups to begin running sites. Currently, there is only one way to determine if a WH is worth seeding/active, and that is by checking the HISTORY of NPC kills through the API, aka seeing "oh these guys ran sites 18 hours ago" - this information allows us to make a somewhat informed decision on whether we want to seed the WH or not. Without this, the only way we can possibly seed a WH is by making a complete shot in the dark.

Removing the API npc kill data completely stacks the odds in favor of the WH NPCers - the npc kill data was our best, last, and ONLY advantage over someone PVEing in wspace.

From reading your posts, I assume the problem you have is us being able to passively gather intel on our chain while not having pilots in space doing the work - would you feel that adding in a delayed API would be a better choice?

Perhaps write it in so the API gives us the NPC kill history of a system - but it's delayed by 8-12 hours? This way, we cannot get "live" intel on systems easily, but we can see some trends of NPC kills in order to determine if there is even anyone active in that WH (online POS mean nothing in terms of activity).

Additionally, I would politely suggest/ask that you implement a modified version of the "delayed k162 spawn" suggestion discussed earlier. I feel that Wspace PVEers are given too much free instant intel through absolutely no effort of their own, making them far too safe. I don't want to punish someone willing to do active intel, so I would hope this wouldn't extend to probes, but delaying the built-in passive dscanner from picking up a new sig by at least a minute would go a long way towards leveling the playing field in terms of wspace pvp groups being able to catch PVEers.

One of your stated design goals of wspace is that lack of intel, or a local chat - right now, being able to see new sigs pop up instantly acts in exactly the same manner as local does for most nullsec PVE residents, and I would assume THIS goes against your stated design goals.

Please give some consideration to my thoughts, and try to keep things balanced for both sides, rather than handing all the advantages to one side.

Appreciated,

Servant's Lord, Disavowed

KSpace NPC Kill data in the client/API should be removed too. Same reason as you shouldn't display the amount of ore mined in a system in the API/client, or the number of (super)capitals being built.

You should travel to the system to get any information out of it.

By all means create probe-able and destroyable deployables to give the same info (say that when your high!). That at least gives those that want to collect the information, an advantage over those that don't, but comes at a cost, and can be countered...

They should also remove local in w-space... oh, wait.

It's funny how only the bigger WH groups seem to have a problem with this, they actually have the manpower to have their chain actively scouted.

God would we ever like to get rid of that.