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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-05-06 16:44:48 UTC
Told you there would be tears, Blink

I Am happy to see this data go away from the API. The 1st time I saw that this was a thing in ExCAM (wormhole mapping tool), I was like "Wow, this is epic. Now I can scan out a chain and then go spin in the POS or do some sites and just wait for the nice yellow light to show up in the ingame web broswer on my alt" No effort on my part was needed to go and find somebody to shoot it. But the poor dudes down the road had no idea.

Sure the info was also on dotlan and the likes, But it was not the same as a nice tool (and they are very good tools BTW - Nice work to the guys that build them) that auto refreshes every 2 seconds.

Some have said it help create content,. I Say bull5hit, It only helps Wormhole PVP Groups GANK!! It does not help them that don't have access to Siggy or ExCAM Webby. And it sure as hell don't help them that don't live in wormhole space but like to take trips into for a few days.

Should have happened sooner.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-05-06 16:45:13 UTC
Finarfin wrote:
I do wonder why it took CCP 5 years to come to the conclusion that this is not intended design but I have to agree with the change. WH space is not nearly mysterious enough and the NPC kill API never made much sense to me.


perhaps because the guy who led the design and development of wormhole space left the company years ago

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Cue Who
Q-Pids
#23 - 2014-05-06 16:45:42 UTC
The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-05-06 16:46:11 UTC
The difference is this change involves an area of space that has been publicly stated by CCP to be special. That specialness is the mystery, the fact they didn't expect people to live there full time and settle the space, and the risk of the unknown with no local.

Should it have taken years? No
Are people going to be upset something they rely on goes away? Yes
Should there be in game mechanics to duplicate this some how with deployables? Sure

So there is some merit to the argument that game design should take a look at this. From an API perspective though it clearly shouldn't be there at this point. Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#25 - 2014-05-06 16:46:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space.


Actually this will just play to the strengths of the entrenched wormhole dwellers, because most of us have our own databases of who lives where and what they like doing.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#26 - 2014-05-06 16:46:57 UTC
Sounds like a great idea. I have always considered W-Space to be the "end game" for small corps and alliances, and as such it ought to be a little more hardcore than it is right now.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Valterra Craven
#27 - 2014-05-06 16:48:38 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Before posting anything publicly this was discussed with EVE game design. We all agreed it should be removed.


Were they consulted about adding it to the client to makes things acceptable and did they also say that wasn't going to happen as well?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-05-06 16:49:07 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
jangofett76
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-05-06 16:50:25 UTC
Quote:
The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.


Quote:
RIP Blood Union !


Yes I think, it's so easy for them to delog in a system during the night when they saw +50 npc kills on siggy ...
They have so much char, they leave one in wh and wait people farm again and come gank again.
And if you think that's call PVP like said one of quantum explosion it's really pathtic.

SO YES DO IT!
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#30 - 2014-05-06 16:50:57 UTC
This isn't that big of a deal. Proper scouting will still give you all the information you need.

No trolling please
Haka Kakinen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-05-06 16:51:24 UTC
make it GLOBAL , not only WH
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-05-06 16:51:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.


It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?"

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-05-06 16:52:13 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
Querns wrote:
This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space.


Actually this will just play to the strengths of the entrenched wormhole dwellers, because most of us have our own databases of who lives where and what they like doing.

These databases were created manually, by direct observation, by real people. I have no problem with the existence of such things because of this. If you use your manually curated information to make decisions on how to best safeguard your assets or maraud the assets of others, in the context of wormhole space, more power to you. You deserve the benefits.

I'm against this information being available, in the context of wormhole space, to be curated by software for every single system in wormhole space. It's too easy.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#34 - 2014-05-06 16:52:15 UTC
OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:

The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.

The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Valterra Craven
#35 - 2014-05-06 16:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.


The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client."

The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced.


And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove your ability to look over Chaos changes and thus would remove your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the client...)

I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-05-06 16:54:16 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Querns wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.


It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?"

If CCP wants this information to be available in the client, they can do so. It cannot come at the expense of the design goals of the API, however.

Furthermore, any in-game deployable would be necessarily limited in its scope to gather the required intel. The API exposes the intel for all systems, all the time, to be downloaded, stored, and curated by software.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#37 - 2014-05-06 16:54:39 UTC
Over 5 years of Wormholes CPP did nothing new in them .
There were no interesting innovations that would be used only for WH (new scanning, scan ships - is more for beginners)

You , CCP, for several years now talking about new classes WH, new anomalies , new activities , changes POS structures ( this is the only way to live in WH if you do not know )

Now you want to remove the only entertainment for active residents WH. Do you think what happens after that ? I personally stop disburse about 30 accounts.

You do not see the world that you created and do not even know that there are people doing .
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-05-06 16:55:20 UTC
Two step wrote:
EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


so maybe you shouldn't be lazy and uninformed and depend on the API to give you intelligence that you should be gathering actively

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-05-06 16:55:29 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.


The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client."

The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced.


And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove you ability to look over Chaos changes and thus removed your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the the client...)

I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable.

I'm absolutely for the removal of the ability to analyze Chaos diffs. Make it happen yesterday. Sure, I've benefited from it in the past, but it's obviously not intended and represents an unfair advantage for those "in the know."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-05-06 16:56:24 UTC
Two step wrote:
OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:

The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.

The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.


I am not sure I would have made the "But my PROFIT" argument for an API change.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.