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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-05-06 16:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP FoxFour
This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D

Update 2014/05/12:
We are going ahead with the removal of WH systems from the kills endpoint. See here for an update: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583223#post4583223

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-05-06 16:31:48 UTC
cool
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-05-06 16:32:38 UTC
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tubolard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-05-06 16:34:20 UTC
Makes sense to me.
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-05-06 16:34:41 UTC
Querns wrote:
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Just make sure that you disable auto signature update in wh space then.

Incidentally, they are thinking about doing just this; to make new wormhole signatures delay their appearance on scanners while they are new. There were some dev posts about it, but I can't be arsed to dig them up.


Yes but let's make life harder for everyone instead of just dumbing it down to oblivious sheeps.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#6 - 2014-05-06 16:35:09 UTC
RIP Blood Union.

Dead Game.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-05-06 16:35:18 UTC
This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Thor66777
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#8 - 2014-05-06 16:35:21 UTC
I support this change. Wormholes are supposed to be unknown. Information about the system you just connected to isn't supposed to be handed to you. You need to work to get the intel.
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-05-06 16:35:57 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Querns wrote:
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Just make sure that you disable auto signature update in wh space then.

Incidentally, they are thinking about doing just this; to make new wormhole signatures delay their appearance on scanners while they are new. There were some dev posts about it, but I can't be arsed to dig them up.


Yes but let's make life harder for everyone instead of just dumbing it down to oblivious sheeps.


At the same time, because IIRC that thread got shot down by everyone, mostly carebears.
There was also no clear direction on how to do it.
Valterra Craven
#10 - 2014-05-06 16:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP FoxFour wrote:


This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.


How many examples of data being available in the API and not in the client exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time?

CCP FoxFour wrote:

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.


You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decide that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before.

Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time.
Silis Silion
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-05-06 16:38:09 UTC
We'll actually have to scout things now?! THE HORROR
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-05-06 16:39:30 UTC
Change is terrible and pretending like the API data is not accessible to everyone because there are people who apparently don't have access to free out of game tools to address the poor design of in game tools is a terrible justification.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-05-06 16:39:38 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.


How many examples of data being available in the API exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time?

CCP FoxFour wrote:

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.


You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decided that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before.

Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time.

Ah, yes, this argument again -- all changes must be delayed until every single niggling discrepancy even tangentially related to the proposed change are also handled.

How many times must we see this demonstrably incorrect thinking before it gets relegated to the garbage can where it belongs?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Finarfin
Cerulean Void
#14 - 2014-05-06 16:40:17 UTC
I do wonder why it took CCP 5 years to come to the conclusion that this is not intended design but I have to agree with the change. WH space is not nearly mysterious enough and the NPC kill API never made much sense to me.
Valterra Craven
#15 - 2014-05-06 16:41:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.


How many examples of data being available in the API exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time?

CCP FoxFour wrote:

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.


You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decided that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before.

Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time.

Ah, yes, this argument again -- all changes must be delayed until every single niggling discrepancy even tangentially related to the proposed change are also handled.

How many times must we see this demonstrably incorrect thinking before it gets relegated to the garbage can where it belongs?


I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-05-06 16:41:50 UTC
Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.

Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.

It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-05-06 16:42:01 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Change is terrible and pretending like the API data is not accessible to everyone because there are people who apparently don't have access to free out of game tools to address the poor design of in game tools is a terrible justification.



have you considered that the oversight isn't the information not being available in-game, but the information being available in the API

food for thought

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nightingale Actault
Borderland Dynamics
#18 - 2014-05-06 16:42:49 UTC
I support this change. This enables a player to use his skills to maximum effect instead of relying on a out of game tool to gather information that would otherwise not be available, which is in line with the experience and gameplay the WH community embraces.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2014-05-06 16:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP FoxFour
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.


How many examples of data being available in the API exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time?

CCP FoxFour wrote:

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.


You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decided that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before.

Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time.

Ah, yes, this argument again -- all changes must be delayed until every single niggling discrepancy even tangentially related to the proposed change are also handled.

How many times must we see this demonstrably incorrect thinking before it gets relegated to the garbage can where it belongs?


I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.


Before posting anything publicly this was discussed with EVE game design. We all agreed it should be removed.

I am also open to hearing of other cases where there is information in the API but not in client.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-05-06 16:43:42 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.

The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client."

The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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