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[Summer 2014] Starbase tweaks

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Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#141 - 2014-05-06 13:47:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Updated original post with Laboratory changes.

Also specified which assembly arrays are not being affected by the Material Reduction bonus.


in the new iteration , apart from the rename of the mobile lab
you only list out the Research labs has Time multiplier for ME,TE
but not copying and invention.

it seem in the summer release, Research labs only can do research, but can't do copying and invention
Design labs is for copying and invention but can't research RE.

am i right?
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#142 - 2014-05-06 13:48:59 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Updated original post with Laboratory changes.

Also specified which assembly arrays are not being affected by the Material Reduction bonus.


Do assembly arrays have a time bonus still?

Thank you,

BB


Yes, updated OP.
Valterra Craven
#143 - 2014-05-06 13:54:33 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Then, laboratories:


Mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).

Advanced Mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

Hyasyoda mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).


Wouldn't it make more sense to do this instead:

Research Lab: (WasMobile lab)
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).
No Copy, (was Time multiplier for copying: 0.75).
No Invention (was Time multiplier for invention: 0.5).

Invention lab: (was Advanced Mobile)
No ME research (was Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

Hyasyoda mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).
No Invention (wast ime multiplier for invention: 0.5)

That way you have more incentive to have different types of labs on your pos? And choices are easier, and you can create more named modules better in the future based on this gradient?


Our lab iteration was very close to this, but your solution is more elegant.

AUCTION SOLD TO THE SHIRTLESS BIDDER ON MY RIGHT! Big smile


Damnit... I have never been so conflicted about being listened too ever.....

On one hand I was listened too!

On the other hand I can't argue that CCP doesn't listen to me anymore!

Crap :X

Thanks <3
Kendra Zane
Working From Home
#144 - 2014-05-06 13:58:30 UTC
I like the new lab names. Now there's a reason to have more than 1!
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2014-05-06 13:59:41 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We are planning to increase cargo capacity on the following Assembly Arrays:
  • Corporate Hangar Arrays: from 1,400,000 m3 to 3,000,000 m3.
  • Ammunition Assembly Array: from 150,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Component Assembly Array: from 1,000,000 m3 to 1,500,000 m3.
  • Drone Assembly Array: from 150,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Equipment Assembly Array: from 500,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Rapid Equipment Assembly Array: from 500,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.

    • Then, laboratories:

  • Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Research Laboratory. Advanced Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Design Laboratory. Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Hyasyoda Laboratory.

    • Research labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).

    Design labs:
    Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
    Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

    Hyasyoda labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).
    [/list]


    Hey Ytterbium, thanks for taking on feedback think the lab names may still need a bit of work. I’m not the most eloquent person put on the planet but these would be my suggestions:
    Efficiency Research Laboratory
    Manipulation and Replication Laboratory (possibly too long needs work)

    Also as you probably guessed from what I quoted just want to bring back up the cargo capacity issues. The current capacities are adding the downside that large scale manufacturing of capital components for example isn’t possible. I was building only 6 Obelisks a month and had to install jobs 3 times a month in order to do so just due to the limitations on storage space.

    An array can build up to 113 capital cargo bays in a single run, 170 after your proposed changes. This is awesome for me as only have to install jobs twice a month, but really the cap should be in line with a max job length of 30 days. This cap would be hit somewhere in the region of 6,300,000 m3 this may seem a bit excessive but there shouldn’t be an advantage of longer single job time possibilities in station than there is in a POS.

    Also a final question is the 2% material bonus after all other bonus's or before. Just wondering how POS bonuses will stack so is it Material Usage = (Material base x (100% - ME percentage) )* 0.98 or Material usage = Material base x (100% - ME Percentage - POS Percentage)?

    EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
    MailDeadDrop
    Archon Industries
    #146 - 2014-05-06 14:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Research Laboratory. Advanced Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Design Laboratory. Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory has been renamed Hyasyoda Laboratory.

    Research labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).

    Design labs:
    Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
    Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

    Hyasyoda labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).


    The Hyasyoda lab is presently bonused for invention (20% more invention slots than the standard mobile lab). Yes, I know slots are going away. But you're also nerfing invention by removing all invention ability from the Hyasyoda.

    MDD
    NEONOVUS
    Mindstar Technology
    Goonswarm Federation
    #147 - 2014-05-06 14:26:32 UTC
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this
    Gilbaron
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #148 - 2014-05-06 14:38:01 UTC
    Will you take a look at manufacturing time? Advanced Labs currently take much longer to build.
    Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
    Department 10
    #149 - 2014-05-06 14:42:45 UTC
    The idea of having additional bonuses on a POS only if you have multiple units of one type of array seems messy and bit of a bodge to me. Wouldn't it be better, for example, to introduce a new skillbook that POS users have to learn to gain a bonus of some description, either material or tax based, to make POS use over NPC station use a little more favourable. Question

    " They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
    LHA Tarawa
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #150 - 2014-05-06 14:59:04 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Marcus Iunius Brutus wrote:
    Celia Therone wrote:
    Are the power grid/cpu requirements for POS modules going to change now that they have infinite slots?


    It seems to be undecided yet.


    Yes, considered doing it, but it's very undecided at the moment. It all depends if we can implement bonuses for multiple structures in Starbases or not.



    Slap a last minute hack in to cover up poor design. That always works out so well.

    You need to take a huge step back and reassess the design and the entire scaling fee structure based on solar system usage instead of specific facility usage.

    The industry changes are such a jumbled mess. It is like the car heading toward the cliff, but we can't slow down and think about it because the date is set.

    I can't tell you how many software projects I've been on that were in this exact situation. Major mistakes made in design, but no one want to admit that, and we can't lose face by saying "we screwed up" and need some more time to rework this.

    So.... hack.

    Slap in a ME bonus to building at a POS in HOPES someone will use one, now that the reason people used them has been removed.

    Slap in some kind-a hack so people will use more than one of each type of facility, now that we removed the resaon that existed....



    And don't get me started on the hate and discontent the ME changes are going to create amongst newer players. Really screwed the pooch on THAT one. It would have been SOOOO much better to change ME to a float, and hide it behind the UI. Show whole %, but that converts to fraction ME behind the scenes.


    You really, really, really need to stop hacking last minute fixes over bad design, stop, ask for an extra month, and REDESIGN!


    Change ME to a float, poof, fixed. Remove specific slots, and convert number of slots to max optimal concurrent, then charge an overuse fee based on how much over max optimal the facility is. overuse fee = max (current-optimal, 0) / optimal. Optimal can then scale to total universal job hours.


    So much easier to understand, predict, doesn't break existing functionality, or the mad scramble to alter bonuses, prevent T2 BPO production changes, etc. etc. etc.
    LHA Tarawa
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #151 - 2014-05-06 15:00:01 UTC
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.
    Azami Nevinyrall
    172.0.0.1
    #152 - 2014-05-06 15:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Azami Nevinyrall
    @Oxide Ammar

    Already done that!

    2 Domi's and 5 sentry's....do the math!

    ...
    NEONOVUS
    Mindstar Technology
    Goonswarm Federation
    #153 - 2014-05-06 15:13:41 UTC
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.

    Im unsure if I should start screaming or smiling with ****
    LHA Tarawa
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #154 - 2014-05-06 15:18:05 UTC
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.

    Im unsure if I should start screaming or smiling with ****



    Technically, it isn't "ME -40" since the term ME will be going away. It will be a 40% increase in material needs, as opposed to the 10% reduction that will be possible from researching an original.

    So, the 2% gain from POS or 5% gain from fully upgraded outpost are a change to 38% and 35% increase.

    As opposed to a BPO which will be able to get 2% and 5% below what had previously been considered ideal.
    NEONOVUS
    Mindstar Technology
    Goonswarm Federation
    #155 - 2014-05-06 16:06:00 UTC
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.

    Im unsure if I should start screaming or smiling with ****



    Technically, it isn't "ME -40" since the term ME will be going away. It will be a 40% increase in material needs, as opposed to the 10% reduction that will be possible from researching an original.

    So, the 2% gain from POS or 5% gain from fully upgraded outpost are a change to 38% and 35% increase.

    As opposed to a BPO which will be able to get 2% and 5% below what had previously been considered ideal.

    The bigger question is that since the current extras are being folded in, do they stay at their current level and get better or are they currently at ME 0 (im going to call it this for simplicity) and thus going to increase by 40% then reduce by 2% and then 25% for the skill
    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #156 - 2014-05-06 16:13:43 UTC
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.

    Im unsure if I should start screaming or smiling with ****



    Technically, it isn't "ME -40" since the term ME will be going away. It will be a 40% increase in material needs, as opposed to the 10% reduction that will be possible from researching an original.

    So, the 2% gain from POS or 5% gain from fully upgraded outpost are a change to 38% and 35% increase.

    As opposed to a BPO which will be able to get 2% and 5% below what had previously been considered ideal.

    The bigger question is that since the current extras are being folded in, do they stay at their current level and get better or are they currently at ME 0 (im going to call it this for simplicity) and thus going to increase by 40% then reduce by 2% and then 25% for the skill


    i dnt think any T2 BPC's will get worse, or at least that was a the impression i got, and the skill for 25% ME will be incorporated into all BP's as their base materials. The skill itself will be changed to do something else iirc.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
    LHA Tarawa
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #157 - 2014-05-06 16:20:04 UTC
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    NEONOVUS wrote:
    So if Im understanding this, then the new -4 -4 for invention is only going to cost 4% or now 2% over the base costs?
    If so I really like this



    Invented BPC will have a ME of -40.

    Im unsure if I should start screaming or smiling with ****



    Technically, it isn't "ME -40" since the term ME will be going away. It will be a 40% increase in material needs, as opposed to the 10% reduction that will be possible from researching an original.

    So, the 2% gain from POS or 5% gain from fully upgraded outpost are a change to 38% and 35% increase.

    As opposed to a BPO which will be able to get 2% and 5% below what had previously been considered ideal.

    The bigger question is that since the current extras are being folded in, do they stay at their current level and get better or are they currently at ME 0 (im going to call it this for simplicity) and thus going to increase by 40% then reduce by 2% and then 25% for the skill


    Stay as they are so as to not effect BPO, but then get increased 40% from invention.

    One way or the other, they used to be the same for BPO and invented BPC, but will now be 40% higher for invented.
    Marsan
    #158 - 2014-05-06 16:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsan
    Honestly I don't see how these changes make me want to use a POS to research or copy a BPO. On one hand I have a station which I just haul the BPOs to and click a few times to research in total safety. On the other hand I have the POS which I have to:

    - Buy a POS
    - Buy labs
    - Buy defences
    - Find an unused moon
    - Create an alt corp (because Lords know I won't risk a corp with anyone but me)
    - Haul my POS, and modules there
    - Setup POS
    - Setup defenses
    - Setup labs
    - Do my carpel tunnel exercises
    - Start BPO research
    - Login daily to insure I haven't been war deced


    Sure it in theory costs less isk and takes less in game time, but personally I work for a living, have a spouse, hobbies, and the rest. I care less about in game time or isk than fun, and my time. Given the above effort I'd much take the isk hit, and in game time hit. Also I'd argue that the time and effort to setup and maintain a research POS would give better returns invested market trading, running FW sites or heck even running a l4 missions. That doesn't even factor in the risk of losing the BPO.

    PS- Also it's a horrible idea to have a structure solely for researching BPOs. Anchoring a Research Lab is basically saying I have a BPO in the POS please siege me.

    PPS- Sure You might argue that I'd don't need to setup my own corp and POS, but then you've really dealt with security in a POS.

    Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
    Banko Mato
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #159 - 2014-05-06 16:41:31 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Corporate Hangar Arrays: from 1,400,000 m3 to 3,000,000 m3.
  • Ammunition Assembly Array: from 150,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Component Assembly Array: from 1,000,000 m3 to 1,500,000 m3.
  • Drone Assembly Array: from 150,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Equipment Assembly Array: from 500,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.
  • Rapid Equipment Assembly Array: from 500,000 m3 to 1,000,000 m3.


    • Right direction, but missed the mark by quite a portion...
    Honestly those moderate increments are next to worthless in regard to unlimited slots. I propose multiplying your numbers by 8 to 10 and fitting requirements for the smaller modules (eq/comp/drone/small_ship arrays) by 3 to 5, and for larger ones by 2. Remember, those modules will now have to substitute for a former farm of arrays each (and no, anchoring half a dozen of those just to get more space and having to deal with moving mats all the time is NOT an option).

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Research labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).

    Design labs:
    Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
    Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

    Hyasyoda labs:
    Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
    Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).


    Imho the Hya lab needs way more buff. This is a rare lab with very limited supply and the multiplier difference to the regular lab of a mere 0.05 is a real joke ^^
    Make it (AT LEAST) 0.5 or 0.55, the bonus should really reflect the uniqueness of this lab. Besides, seems you forgot the bonus to invention on this one. The Hya lab is the lab with the largest invention slot pool as of now. This should be considered when balancing it for summer. Therefore add a nice bonus to invention time. This can even range down to 0.35 to better reflect the currently 3 times larger slot pool for invention compared to the advanced lab.
    TheMercenaryKing
    Collapsed Out
    Pandemic Legion
    #160 - 2014-05-06 16:48:44 UTC
    Since you guys were trying to make Industry look better and smoother around the edges:

    Why not make it so the POS Mods say " Y% Reduction " instead of " Multiplier of X ".

    It's not so much that people cant do math, but more of consistency between everything in EVE. I think these mods are like one of the few, if anything else, bonuses that are displayed this way.