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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Summer 2014] Starbase tweaks

First post First post
Author
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#61 - 2014-05-05 16:23:15 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:

Here is the question...

Do you balance risk/reward against Deklein or Catch?


I'm sorry what are you suggesting? You think that Deklein and Catch should have a bonus over other null regions because they have more risk? I honestly don't understand what you are getting at

Deklein and Catch can still compete with other regions unlike low as they still have the potential to make a profit.



No, I suggested there is risk in null

Someone replied blue donut

I was re iterating, not EVERYONE lives in a blue donut

So, do you balance risk/reward against the blue donut or the areas of conflict?

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Oxide Ammar
#62 - 2014-05-05 16:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
....Also can you please introduce way to rent assembly lines to public ? let Corps compete for their rental fees like POCOs

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#63 - 2014-05-05 16:36:49 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
....Also can you please introduce way to rent assembly lines to public ? let Corps compete for their rental fees like POCOs


they mentioned the fact that alliance used to be able to do ME/PE jobs within alliance and that is no longer possible due to not being able to put on jobs from station. now that all jobs have to originate from a POS and only corp members have access to pos arrays, it will be absolutely impossible to rent out slots in a pos

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-05-05 16:39:26 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


So, do you balance risk/reward against the blue donut or the areas of conflict?


I don't understand, there is no 'balance' here it is very simple. You either can build capitals in low or you can't (unless you want to make a loss). My argument is that the difference in cost to produce should be small enough that they can be built in low, which is what was mentioned at the fanfest panel but is not shown in this thread.

Not really sure where there idea of balance has come in or why you are pointing out that some regions are riskier because it is unrelated to my point.

I think you think this is like mining, like null should make 50m/hr vs 20m/hr in low or something to balance risk. That is not the case, it is you can build with profit or you can build with loss, simple.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-05-05 16:39:27 UTC
Copying this here from an other thread (original post)



CCP Greyscale wrote:

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.


Suggestion.

Give Labs and Assembly arrays inherent workers. Example : Equipment Assembly Array have 6 Inherent workers. The first 6 jobs (one worker per job) running at the same time will use the basic price and any extra jobs (past number 6) that is running concurrently will use the standard price scalling mechanic as it would apply for any job in the system.

This would effectively give POS owners a price advantage, so maybe the calculation would have to be a discount for the first 6 jobs and then full price. This would effectively give a reason to have more then one module of one type attached to a POS but also keep the unlimited jobs per module option. Having more modules then becomes a ISK vs RISK calculation (should I have more defences online or should I have more assembly arrays online)

I used 6 for the Equip Assembly array because this is the current number of slots this modules gives. Please feel free to change that number to whatever you feel is more appropriate.

If you have an easy, non server intensive way to calculate how many concurrent jobs are running in a single array then this should be somewhat easy to implement. If you don't then this point is moot and forget this suggestion.
Kai Hamabu
Schizophrenics
#66 - 2014-05-05 16:39:51 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Then, laboratories:


Mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).

Advanced Mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

Hyasyoda mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).


Wouldn't it make more sense to do this instead:

Research Lab: (WasMobile lab)
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).
No Copy, (was Time multiplier for copying: 0.75).
No Invention (was Time multiplier for invention: 0.5).

Invention lab: (was Advanced Mobile)
No ME research (was Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).

Hyasyoda mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75).
No Invention (wast ime multiplier for invention: 0.5)

That way you have more incentive to have different types of labs on your pos? And choices are easier, and you can create more named modules better in the future based on this gradient?


>Yes, this is a good idea. But i think Hyasyoda mobile labs needs a big buff (For the Caldari Epic)

Hyasyoda mobile labs:
Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75).
Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65).
Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5)

So we need only this Lab for a POS, but it will be expensive.
Oxide Ammar
#67 - 2014-05-05 16:40:40 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
....Also can you please introduce way to rent assembly lines to public ? let Corps compete for their rental fees like POCOs


they mentioned the fact that alliance used to be able to do ME/PE jobs within alliance and that is no longer possible due to not being able to put on jobs from station. now that all jobs have to originate from a POS and only corp members have access to pos arrays, it will be absolutely impossible to rent out slots in a pos


May be they should introduce an array/hangar that can be anchored outside POS shield that you dump your mat and BPC at it and queue the job and let the POS owner handle the rest...mmm like Mail box XD

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#68 - 2014-05-05 17:05:04 UTC
Spectre Wraith wrote:
These are all very good changes, however, let me reiterate the one thing that is almost universally wanted/requested, and that is....

MODULAR STARBASES!!

There was a thread created years back of this very idea, including CAD/3d models of what this would be like, and ever since, has probably been the most requested/wanted for starbases.



245 pages of ideas, discussions and requests from those of us who are merely "a small portion of the community" (CCP's description of us, not our own description)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194625

for more than a year now, and there are threads before that as well we have requested, begged, pleaded, presented, outlined, and whined about POS's and this summer, well, you know...

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Tetania
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-05-05 17:13:04 UTC
Stop derailing focused threads with "Fix POS" whines.

They know POS are an issue, they are also non trivial to fix and you can't just remove them until they are fixed because so much depends on them.
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-05-05 17:17:57 UTC
First off would just like to say the thought of an industry release was enough to bring me back to game, but still think there’s quite a bit of work to do to make it as popular as Apocrypha.

Couple of things that for me personally need addressing:

1) Mobile labs and advanced mobile labs need renaming or changing to actually reflect their names - so one named for TE and one for ME research or actually give both all of the research options. There’s no reason for both to not have all 4 types of research now slots are removed so rebalance them to offer 2 tiers of bonus would be a wise move to make it more accessible and understandable.

2) The storage space sucks – there is no reason not to vastly increase the storage space 10 fold on all arrays, it simply allows players to put more at risk whilst making installing jobs easier. Previously to install 100 component jobs I had to move a bunch of T2 materials between 10 arrays, the most annoying part being not all of the materials fit in a single array so it wasn’t a simple case of moving things between arrays. This is a needlessly annoying task, that also makes group industry more frustrating too logging on an off between alts to move materials between arrays and to install jobs is just pointless gameplay.

Also just a quick additional thing is like many others I really think some bonus needs to be in place for multiple arrays. I’ve also done highsec POS bashing for profit and we used to choose our targets based on the number of arrays and their sale value. So either there needs to be an incentive to keep more expensive stuff in space or loot needs to drop from industry jobs in progress when a array is destroyed. The risk and reward balance only works if there is a driver for people to shoot highsec POS’s.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.

CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2014-05-05 17:21:09 UTC
In related matters...

What happened to the rebalance of starbase weapons mentioned last year?

This is a similarly low impact project to tweak weapon stats that have remained the same for almost a decade, since Dreads had less hitpoints than a typical battleship or T3 cruiser does these days.
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#72 - 2014-05-05 17:27:10 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
In related matters...

What happened to the rebalance of starbase weapons mentioned last year?

This is a similarly low impact project to tweak weapon stats that have remained the same for almost a decade, since Dreads had less hitpoints than a typical battleship or T3 cruiser does these days.



Fozzie acknowledged on the stream the bad bad bad place missiles are in, combines with POS defense overall

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#73 - 2014-05-05 17:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I like to consider myself as "The POS Guy", as I've posted numerous times on the topic.

I really don't have a problem with any of the proposed changes, so far.

Good points, that make me very happy:

* Advanced Ship Assembly Arrays will be useful.

This has long been a personal crusade of mine:
[Proposal] Make Advanced Ship manufacturing arrays useful, July 5th, 2010
And it even got CSM attention:
Make Advanced Ship Assembly Arrays useful (CSM), Submission date: Sep 11, 2010
Only took 4 years Roll

* Ammunition Assembly Array, and other arrays, getting more storage.

This is HUGE, and I'm not talking about volume. I mean finally there is a chance for 30-day ammunition build jobs (I'll have to do some math to verify), and building lots of bombs; previously one had to use a station to build any large quantity of bombs.

Personally, I of course would like to see them all with larger storage, especially Component Assembly Array, but something is better than nothing.

You now only need 2 labs:

* Advanced Mobile Laboratory = Copying (0.6)
* Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory = Invention (0.45), ME & TE (0.65)

The rest of the fitting can be for assembly arrays and defenses.

I should add that none of the proposed changes make me want to keep using a POS. Sad

Aside: The refining implant and copy implant using the same implant slot really sucks, now that both are very important.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-05-05 17:47:59 UTC
Any news on making the Starbase Defense Management skill only needing anchoring 4 and not 5? Like that one guy said at fanfest.
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#75 - 2014-05-05 18:25:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium,

I know sweeping changes for pos structures probably won't make this patch, but a slight tweak to the Refining arrays grid usage would be nice, 750k is a pile of grid... just means I have to offline piles of stuff everytime i want to refine mins. It's not a big deal, just adds a lot of time onlining those same mods over and over again, and it is rather pointless, everyone is gonna keep their refine arrays offline anyway.

Regards
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#76 - 2014-05-05 18:35:34 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
CCP Ytterbium,

I know sweeping changes for pos structures probably won't make this patch, but a slight tweak to the Refining arrays grid usage would be nice, 750k is a pile of grid... just means I have to offline piles of stuff everytime i want to refine mins. It's not a big deal, just adds a lot of time onlining those same mods over and over again, and it is rather pointless, everyone is gonna keep their refine arrays offline anyway.

Regards


What size tower are you using?

Have you accounted for the fact you will only need 1 of each assy array and one adv lab and one hyasoda etc, now that there are no more slots?

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#77 - 2014-05-05 19:05:07 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:

What size tower are you using?

Have you accounted for the fact you will only need 1 of each assy array and one adv lab and one hyasoda etc, now that there are no more slots?




Yup, but even then, 750,000 grid is still a lot if you want to maximize your limited defensive capabilities. Yeah I can offline 10 guns, then spend 20min re-onlining them all. Seems kinda a waste of time.

Really, an argument could be made that basic service types of modules should need minimal grid/cpu usage. (refining, corp hangars, ship maint etc)

It's not like pos defenses are going to become to overpowering given the state they are in now.....
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#78 - 2014-05-05 19:12:40 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:


Edit: Also, 2% barely justifies the 600m isk/month cost a worthwhile POS takes to run IMO. Especially with infinite slots available in stations which are risk-free.


Because being able to produce things faster has no outcome on how much isk per month you can make...

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#79 - 2014-05-05 19:14:09 UTC
Will we be able to place BPOs into the personal hangar arrays (Therefore still be at risk), and still conduct research and manufacturing on them?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#80 - 2014-05-05 19:42:53 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Will we be able to place BPOs into the personal hangar arrays (Therefore still be at risk), and still conduct research and manufacturing on them?

NO, they MUST be in the physical item doing the production, research, invention etc

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)