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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#261 - 2014-04-28 20:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
XerXes SX wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

If it's perfect currently, it'll be perfect after the change without further research. ME4 currently gives you an 8% waste reduction, so it'll be converted to ME 8% in the new system. If it was effectively perfect at ME4 before, it'll be effectively perfect at ME 8% after.

Am I explaining this clearly enough?


No - so what will happen if I invent further to ME 10%, no more changes?
Since there is no more waste ME 0% is base so very ME level means less material consumption, so there must be a different between 8% and 10%.

Indeed. Not quite understanding this either. With wastage removed, researching a BPO to level 10 will always be better than researching to level 9 surely.

Edit - well not always, but in most cases it should confer an advantage.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#262 - 2014-04-28 20:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
So far we have no indication that copy speed is getting bonuses anywhere, Pos or other wise

POS facilities will have to provide some advantage over NPC stations. I'm happy to wait for final information on what that is.


No scaling costs is probably enough, no?

Try again:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
The cost scaling will affect all build/research locations, including conquerable stations and outposts. All slot limitations are being removed everywhere in EVE, and locations that formerly had slot bonuses will receive other bonuses instead. More info on that will be in future blogs.
Madfranco
Eightfold Arrow
#263 - 2014-04-28 20:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Madfranco
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Madfranco wrote:


What i was asking for is if it would be possible to batch jobs from multiple BPCs, because actually some BPOs have too few max runs on their BPCs (see Capital parts BPOs), some invented T2 BPCs (E.G.: 8 runs T2 small rig job completion time is 20h at a POS array currently) have similar "tendencies" of forcing you to log multiple times a day to "click" if you want to manifacture from them.

That is the whole point of T2 invention. Suck it up and make a more efficient production chain that you can effectively manage. I don't think industry needs to be dumbed down even further to the lowest denominators.


My production chain is as efficient as it can be given my log times, the point is that the actual bottleneck are log times, due to how the current and the next ui handle things.

Should it be the UI and log times the real bottleneck? or should it be your ability to promplty get supplies to keep your lines fed?

Must i log every hour to reque my invention jobs or should i be able to say "Here's the materials needed for 24 hours of invention, just cycle it 24 times on your own"?

This should be true for the BPCs too, E.G.: Capital Parts BPCs: the problem with the 5 runs BPCs is that they force you to log each 8 hours or so only to submit the Jobs, this doesn't create content or interaction, is just you fighting vs the UI; one solution would be to raise the max number of copies on the Capital Parts BPCs, or you could get at the root of the problem and enable a batching sistem for manufacturing and Invention....

That is what i wanted to convey in the previous posts
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#264 - 2014-04-28 20:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Korthan Doshu
Seem like good changes for simplifying attempts to figure out industry for new players. As a personal matter I just hope the transition isn't too rough for people like me who build spreadsheets but don't have fast, automated ways of dealing with data files because :notaprogrammer:. I guess building spreadsheets should be easier in the future because there will be clearer values for things like rank on BPOs.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2014-04-28 21:01:39 UTC
Great changes. Makes the whole researching process much easier. The way I read it, you are capping research so you can't go any further than 1%. This should balance with the line changes well.

I would like to see how you are going to balance decryptors.

Also, still not positive I like T2 BPOs having the reduction in copy times. This will open up copies as a market, which then will negatively affect invention. I'd like to see more numbers on this wrt specific T2 BPOs still out there and for what items.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#266 - 2014-04-28 21:01:50 UTC
Having read through the thread I now have a few comments.
Firstly, 95% nice changes. Complexity simply for complexities sake is a bad thing and the ME changes are a good simplification without loosing significant effect.

Secondly, Research credit. Please no. If you implement this it will be abused by large scale groups to do things like gain perfect titan BPO's by pooling all their credit from smaller BPO's from multiple people. A few people may loose some actual effort as a result of this change. HTFU. It's not the end of the world and you got to benefit from that all the way along anyway. (I loose some time on some of my BPO's myself like this, I'll live)

Thirdly, T2 BPO's, I do think now is the time to look at removing them. Every change to industry requires taking special steps just for them, they are a poorly thought out grandfathering from the early days, and people need to acknowledge that. The copy change may also be only an extra 6.25%, but you are looking at the wrong statistic on the market when you consider them. Currently you look at market share and say 'But it's a low market share'. Instead consider profit share. The Inventors will be cutting very slim margins of a few percent above simply selling all the components. Meaning that for every 10 Invented items, they get the profit of 1 BPO item probably. Which means that the actual profit share of T2 BPO's is vastly greater than their market share would indicate. Even a 5% market share could be as high as a 50% profit share.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#267 - 2014-04-28 21:05:53 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
T2 BPO's can stay, why not? They just shouldn't be able to have a monopoly on any particular market. The tricky way is to nerf their output until they hold value but invention utterly overshadows them in all cases. The easy way is to at least not buff them.

Well, one reason why T2 BPOs should go away is due to the additional balance work it always takes to continue to support them, whenever these sorts of changes are made to the game.

The T2 BPO owners continually state that they don't affect the T2 market significantly, and have no advantage over T2 invention. If this is true, then getting rid of the T2 BPOs will have no negative effect on the game.

As for the T2 BPO owners themselves...

As has been often stated in the past when other features were removed -> have the players affected gotten full value from a particular feature over the past 10 years? If the answer is "yes", then the feature should be removable, without feeling that someone is being "cheated".

But, in this case, each T2 BPO could be converted to a pile ot T2 BPCs... just to be fair.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#268 - 2014-04-28 21:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Madfranco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Madfranco wrote:


What i was asking for is if it would be possible to batch jobs from multiple BPCs, because actually some BPOs have too few max runs on their BPCs (see Capital parts BPOs), some invented T2 BPCs (E.G.: 8 runs T2 small rig job completion time is 20h at a POS array currently) have similar "tendencies" of forcing you to log multiple times a day to "click" if you want to manifacture from them.

That is the whole point of T2 invention. Suck it up and make a more efficient production chain that you can effectively manage. I don't think industry needs to be dumbed down even further to the lowest denominators.


My production chain is as efficient as it can be given my log times, the point is that the actual bottleneck are log times, due to how the current and the next ui handle things.

Should it be the UI and log times the real bottleneck? or should it be your ability to promplty get supplies to keep your lines fed?

Must i log every hour to reque my invention jobs or should i be able to say "Here's the materials needed for 24 hours of invention, just cycle it 24 times on your own"?

This should be true for the BPCs too, E.G.: Capital Parts BPCs: the problem with the 5 runs BPCs is that they force you to log each 8 hours or so only to submit the Jobs, this doesn't create content or interaction, is just you fighting vs the UI; one solution would be to raise the max number of copies on the Capital Parts BPCs, or you could get at the root of the problem and enable a batching sistem for manufacturing and Invention....

That is what i wanted to convey in the previous posts

Yes, it is intentional that T2 BPCs have inconvenient manufacture times. Which by the way can be modified by decryptors to provide a manufacture time which is more convenient for your production chain. Your production chain clearly is not efficient if you having to log in every couple of hours to update it. CCP have given you plenty of tools to modify that though without the need for dumbing down and homogenising everything.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#269 - 2014-04-28 21:10:45 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Also, still not positive I like T2 BPOs having the reduction in copy times. This will open up copies as a market, which then will negatively affect invention. I'd like to see more numbers on this wrt specific T2 BPOs still out there and for what items.

If they copy then there is little reason for them not to manufacture from it themselves. Although I agree with the sentiment, T2 BPOs could do with a nerf. Given the building better worlds blog, T2 invention items now require more materials, which is another buff to T2 BPO holders. If anything T2 BPOs should be being nerfed, and certainly not buffed.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2014-04-28 21:10:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Having read through the thread I now have a few comments.
Firstly, 95% nice changes. Complexity simply for complexities sake is a bad thing and the ME changes are a good simplification without loosing significant effect.

Secondly, Research credit. Please no. If you implement this it will be abused by large scale groups to do things like gain perfect titan BPO's by pooling all their credit from smaller BPO's from multiple people. A few people may loose some actual effort as a result of this change. HTFU. It's not the end of the world and you got to benefit from that all the way along anyway. (I loose some time on some of my BPO's myself like this, I'll live)

Thirdly, T2 BPO's, I do think now is the time to look at removing them. Every change to industry requires taking special steps just for them, they are a poorly thought out grandfathering from the early days, and people need to acknowledge that. The copy change may also be only an extra 6.25%, but you are looking at the wrong statistic on the market when you consider them. Currently you look at market share and say 'But it's a low market share'. Instead consider profit share. The Inventors will be cutting very slim margins of a few percent above simply selling all the components. Meaning that for every 10 Invented items, they get the profit of 1 BPO item probably. Which means that the actual profit share of T2 BPO's is vastly greater than their market share would indicate. Even a 5% market share could be as high as a 50% profit share.


Research Credit - There are simple ways to eliminate your "issue." If the credit reduces your research time by 1/2 then you will still have to spend around 12 years to gain a perfect Titan BPO (oh the game balance). I think some research credit will reduce a great deal of anger from many people.

T2 BPOs - Not going to happen. We will just have to live with these sticking around for a while.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#271 - 2014-04-28 21:13:39 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
I ask you again, how many do you have?

Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience.

I hear a vested interest goes a long way too.

Yes, I'm not impartial. But a T2 BPO collection is not going to stop me from supporting good chages.

If I see a good argument for removing or totally nerfing T2 BPOs, I'll support it.

I don't think there is much danger of that though.
XerXes SX
TriOptimum Citadel
#272 - 2014-04-28 21:18:12 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:


But, in this case, each T2 BPO could be converted to a pile ot T2 BPCs... just to be fair.


Totally agree!

even if from the cost/ISK POV the T2 BPO and the Invention BPO is all most at one level,
for copy and invention I need Slots (run an Starbase after patch) and do logistic to carry on the data-cores and so on...

all this is not taken into account IMHO.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2014-04-28 21:18:33 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
I ask you again, how many do you have?

Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience.

I hear a vested interest goes a long way too.

Yes, I'm not impartial. But a T2 BPO collection is not going to stop me from supporting good chages.

If I see a good argument for removing or totally nerfing T2 BPOs, I'll support it.

I don't think there is much danger of that though.

You couldn't possibly be asking us to trust you to make suggestions for T2 BPOs.

First:
Upton Sinclair wrote:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.


Second: This is EVE. Why would we trust anyone?

Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments?
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2014-04-28 21:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
I think it's time for Tech 2 BPOs to be deactivated and turned into collectors' items.


T2 BPOs should be recalled by the relevant corp and turned into vouchers for giant sums of LP with those respective corps. Items with no obvious corp (e.g. DCU2) should just get randomly assigned to one of the various industrial NPC corps. These vouchers should be tradeable/sellable on the market or at least by contract.

This way you can compensate people with an appropriate amount for their T2 BPOs (e.g. 50b worth of LP for even some of the "simpler" BPs), but you are not creating ISK since LP stores are a sink and not a faucet. Likewise, if people try to cash out all at once, they are going to crash their own markets.

T2 BPOs finally gone, folks are being compensated for market value of those T2 BPOs, but in a way that doesn't generate new ISK or flood the market all at once. Might screw over some mission runners for a while who are hoarding LP but no one was ever promised "stable" LP values...

EDIT: This would also indirectly nerf hisec mission blitzing LP for a while which, I think, grrrrrGoons will support so it's a win-win for everyone!
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#275 - 2014-04-28 21:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
There are some "shadows" in this devblog I think..

You say you will remove waste in blueprints... but which waste ? Since you are speaking about reprocessing change I can only think it's Extra Materials ? But you are saying after "we're removing the current system of taking "perfect build" requirements" so you speak about the material efficiency skill ?

What is the correct answer ? Both ? Only extra material ?


Btw, the changes are great : things will be far easier to understand (ME10 is perfect, regardless the blueprint you take).
I also like one of the idea I saw in the blog getting the "old level info" somewhere for the "collector" aspect for the "great time wasted to research"

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2014-04-28 21:28:08 UTC
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#277 - 2014-04-28 21:31:02 UTC
It's probably been said already, but the real industrialists have worked hard to make their BPOs all perfect. So they will be a bit pissed off when their perfect BPOS now need months of work to make perfect again, while the guy who [previously wasted months of time over researching them is now sitting on a pile of perfect BPOs.

Likewise, anyone with a BPO researched (possibly not even perfect) beyond your new maximum will be pissed off that they have wasted time.

If you want to be nice to the idiots (which is what this patch seems to be about) and also not **** off your hardcore players, you've got to come up with a way to transfer ME (or PE for that matter) onto another BPO.

Just do it as a time based exchange; I could exchange 60 days of now unnecessary research in a Caldari Fuel Block BPO into now necessary research into an archon BPO to move it from 2 to say 6.


Any other solution will be unfair as it will penalise the people who followed your rules, and reward those who didn't.


This is the most complex rebalance you have ever attempted, so please make sure you get it right.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#278 - 2014-04-28 21:31:53 UTC
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Could you explain why that is for Goons T2 BPO's.
Wil Jackson
Materials Acquistion and Trading Service
#279 - 2014-04-28 21:32:05 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Wil Jackson wrote:
Will there be more offices in stations? Stations with research capability will clearly be in high demand. Corporations will need to either put their BPOs in a POS or pay hundreds of millions per month in office fees to keep their BPOs in a station.

Wil


And? What's the problem with that?

The problem is that there are a fixed number of offices in the station. Remember how CCP said they were removing slots?

MDD


The problem is that an individual can use said facility without the onerous fees but a corporation cannot.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#280 - 2014-04-28 21:32:18 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
There are some "shadows" in this devblog I think..

You say you will remove waste in blueprints... but which waste ? Since you are speaking about reprocessing change I can only think it's Extra Materials ? But you are saying after "we're removing the current system of taking "perfect build" requirements" so you speak about the material efficiency skill ?

What is the correct answer ? Both ? Only extra material ?


Btw, the changes are great : things will be far easier to understand (ME10 is perfect, regardless the blueprint you take).
I also like one of the idea I saw in the blog getting the "old level info" somewhere for the "collector" aspect for the "great time wasted to research"


Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.

Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).

The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.