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rofl excellent troll, +1

Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%.

We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes.
1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market.
2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity).
3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases.

In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them.

I think it's time for Tech 2 BPOs to be deactivated and turned into collectors' items.

I'm somewhat confused as to all the fear associated with T2 BPO copying. People might want to take a quick peek at what is actually required to copy a T2 BPO, for example, here's the huginn.

To make a copy, you need 12 R.Db - Boundless Creations and 175 Data Sheets. Current market price for those components is about 1.5M and there are only about 500 of the R.Db on the market total. Invention needs about 1.6M in datacores and a BPC, though it has a chance to fail.

T2 BPO owners can, in theory, flood the market with cheap copies but only for a very short time until the R.Db supply runs out or they could keep doing what they're doing now and manufacture with the BPO and forget about copying as it'll be an expensive waste of time.

If you want to really ensure you're covered, buy up the R.Db supply. It wouldn't cost much to have a majority of the liquid stock.

Yeah, this is true, due to the way the math concertinas up and down.



In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible.

In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon

In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true.

So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely".

(To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))

Just to be quick about it - industrialists who put their effort (time/isk/security/whatever) into researching BPOs to higher levels should definitely get something in return. The simple fact that if two people researched a BPO one for a year (e.g. ME60) another for 2 months (e.g. ME10) should end up with the same BPO post patch feels ridiculously 'unfair'.

It likely cannot be said how much ISK the effort is worth (many variables influenced this over time). It should be possible to compute how much time one had to spend pre-Patch and how much the BPO would need post-Patch in order to research a BPO to equivalent levels..

As has been suggested, perhaps the most direct way to compensate this would be to provide researchers with RUs that could be freely spent on new research jobs, similarly to spending reimbursed SPs after learning skills were removed.

While this would not retain the 'better value' of our BPOs with ridiculously high ME/PE values (which made BPCs sell better over less researched ones), it would at least allow us to transfer that research time to new BPOs (which we could have researched had we not researched the ones that got capped).

Yes, but its important to remember that in all T2 markets (with BPOs) that extra production is at the expense of invention.

Also, I want to call attention to the earlier post that hit upon someone I was trying to work out. The perfect ME might indeed move based on the additional materials. While I think it is a minor issue it is going to result in some spike demand for research.

I at least hope this is a forum alt. I am going to guess that you may be just trying to cause trouble for anyone with labs in WH space. Either way having BPOs in PoS's is a bad idea. Having many BPOs at a PoS in WH space is a really bad idea. Having labs in WH space is like asking to have your hole cleaned out.

It would be far better to improve all the unpopular T2 products, so that people actually use them all in reasonable volume. That way there would be sufficient space for the T2 BPO owners and a reasonable number of inventors in every market.

This seems to be the approach that has been taken by the balance team, so if we give them some time the "problem" will get solved.

This will not stop people hating on eachother out of ignorance, prejudice and envy. But those issues are somewhat out of scope.

I disagree, but you can have your economist test it: with the nerf to tech and the subsequent rise of the r64s, we saw a period of change in how valuable ships were, and I expect that the current settled price is different from the pre-tech settled price (and that prices are now stable and can be compared to previous stable prices). I suspect that you'll see that as price changed, use changed very little (if at all) for t2 items, and that almost all change in the rate of use of t2 items can be explained by subscriber growth and rebalances that affect those items/ships (even if only indirectly, like the cynabal being buffed affects sales of vagabonds even when the vagabond itself is not touched).

The thing is, fixing this is pretty easy: any t2 bpo holder has science V, just tweak their copy times so that a science V copy time is exactly equal to its current build time. The math is pretty simple, the rationale is pretty simple, and it avoids buffing or nerfing T2 bpos which are a sore subject (even though the amount of soreness over them in many cases far exceeds the actual trouble they're causing).