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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#121 - 2014-04-28 17:18:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lena Lazair wrote:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


So if I have a blueprint with ME 4 that is currently perfect under the existing system, it will now require days/weeks to re-perfect it? That seems really odd.

What I expected to see is that the perfect ME/TE for any given blueprint be calculated, and then blueprints transitioned to the new system based on a ratio between their current number and the perfect number. E.g. if I have a blueprint at ME 4, and a perfect ME would be 5, then I'm at 0.8 and should get an ME 8% (or TE 16%) on the new blueprint.

Obviously you won't be able to go with a 100% perfect value as the upper end for a lot of things, since many blueprints have ridiculous upper-ends on that scale, but some reasonable margin would probably make most people happy (e.g. 95% or 98% being the "perfect" ME used to scale the top end of the ratio).


If it's perfect currently, it'll be perfect after the change without further research. ME4 currently gives you an 8% waste reduction, so it'll be converted to ME 8% in the new system. If it was effectively perfect at ME4 before, it'll be effectively perfect at ME 8% after.

Am I explaining this clearly enough?



Do you realize this is NOT true. Since Extra materials are being turned into normal materials, the ME level needed for perfect production will move at the same time you implement this change.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#122 - 2014-04-28 17:19:30 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I would like to join the idea of rewarding people with ME/PE lvls above new max - we invested great time, effort and resourced to manage that, we deserve some kind of compensation. The idea of some kind of tokens that we could possible receive as compensation to shorten research time of other BPOs seems like a good idea for example.


You guys feel like you worked hard for those. I get it. I think you're mostly deceiving yourselves (see: opportunity cost), but who am I to judge how another player extracts value.

But, I think that the research time "token" is too fraught with potential for abuse. So I am opposed to it.

Another person in thread suggested putting cosmetic notations on those blueprints. That doesn't compensate for the effort (whatever it may have been) but it does restore some of the "it's special" feeling. I'd be ok with that.

MDD
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2014-04-28 17:19:31 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I get a strange feeling when I see players (Weasilor, Aryth, ElectronHerd Askulf, etc.) having a better understanding of the economics than the Devs. It's a partly warm feeling, partly sick feeling.

Also, Eve Online's economics still make it the best game. Thank you CCP.

MDD


I do wish we were more public sometimes around what we do to the economy as I think it would draw a totally new type of player in. Then the paranoia kicks in. Ah well.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Qual
Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
#124 - 2014-04-28 17:20:25 UTC
Altrue wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Stuff here
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.


Yeah but an industry rewamp would still be a good opportunity to get rid of these T2 BPOs...


Iit is a 6.5% bonus to something that iss always, and always have been, way more lucrative that invention. T2 BPO's are a relic of the past. They should not recive any buffs at all.

Still, the best way to make T2 BPO irrelevant moving forward is to have the new ME/TE levels actually being reflected as the base of invetion, thus turning the tables and making it possible to actually have inveted bpc that "break" the ranks. Think an ME +1 bonus together with a ME lvl 10 T1 BPC, yielding an ME lvl 11 BPC. This would work both ways also allowing for negative ME should one be so stupid to go for that. In a variation of this we would still have a base -4 modifier, but added to the actual T1 BPO level and not an assumed ME 0 as now. The would at least even the playing field.

Looking forward to seeing announcements to what you will do with invention/RE in the fall.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#125 - 2014-04-28 17:21:00 UTC
Under the new research system, it will take twice as long to get to 1% waste as it does now. So get an many BPOs to level 11 as you can NOW, because after the change all BPOs at 11 or more become perfect.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#126 - 2014-04-28 17:21:05 UTC
why aren't T2 BPO's deleted from the game ??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-04-28 17:21:11 UTC
"The primary reason for this is to try and unify T1, T2 and T3 manufacturing around being dominated by build-from-copy rather than build-from-original. "


Really.

That was the plan.

Let's remove the annoying extra crud that everyone hates about manufacturing, by making the all have 1-person alt corps running a high sec POS, with a bunch of copy alts.

Log in, launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. Close. Launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. close. switch account.. Log in. launch, , select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. Close. Launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. close. switch account..
Repeat for the 2 alts per indy account.


Then gab fuel, undock, warp to pOS, deliver fuel, collect copies, back to station, create courier contract.

Repeat every day, if not multiple times every day.


Way to remove torture from the industry process CCP! Good...

Oh wait. You've just destroyed the manufacturing process.

Thanks for NOTHING!!!!!
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#128 - 2014-04-28 17:22:45 UTC
Aryth wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I get a strange feeling when I see players (Weasilor, Aryth, ElectronHerd Askulf, etc.) having a better understanding of the economics than the Devs. It's a partly warm feeling, partly sick feeling.

Also, Eve Online's economics still make it the best game. Thank you CCP.

MDD


I do wish we were more public sometimes around what we do to the economy as I think it would draw a totally new type of player in. Then the paranoia kicks in. Ah well.

I hear there's meds for that. Just sayin' Lol

MDD
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#129 - 2014-04-28 17:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lena Lazair wrote:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


So if I have a blueprint with ME 4 that is currently perfect under the existing system, it will now require days/weeks to re-perfect it? That seems really odd.

What I expected to see is that the perfect ME/TE for any given blueprint be calculated, and then blueprints transitioned to the new system based on a ratio between their current number and the perfect number. E.g. if I have a blueprint at ME 4, and a perfect ME would be 5, then I'm at 0.8 and should get an ME 8% (or TE 16%) on the new blueprint.

Obviously you won't be able to go with a 100% perfect value as the upper end for a lot of things, since many blueprints have ridiculous upper-ends on that scale, but some reasonable margin would probably make most people happy (e.g. 95% or 98% being the "perfect" ME used to scale the top end of the ratio).


If it's perfect currently, it'll be perfect after the change without further research. ME4 currently gives you an 8% waste reduction, so it'll be converted to ME 8% in the new system. If it was effectively perfect at ME4 before, it'll be effectively perfect at ME 8% after.

Am I explaining this clearly enough?



Do you realize this is NOT true. Since Extra materials are being turned into normal materials, the ME level needed for perfect production will move at the same time you implement this change.


Oh. Yeah, good point. In the cases where extra materials exist, some blueprints will change their "perfect" point, yes.

[edit] CCP Delegate Zero just pointed out to me that, even without the research changes, the removal of extra materials would have the effect regardless. So, the translation from old research to new research will not change whether or not a BP is perfect, but the extra materials changes going out at the same time might change it.
Callisto Helix
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#130 - 2014-04-28 17:26:59 UTC
I haven't yet had the time to read all the posts in this thread, but I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the blue posts thus far.

With regard to figuring out what to do for BPO's that have been heavily researched after the expansion patch goes live and the discussion of some type of time credit or something along those lines: What about for those industrialists that live in wormholes? Every BPO I own sits in a corp hangar at a POS in my home system. I believe it's technically "owned" by my corp. How are you going to know that I'm the one that's supposed to get the credit when I go to apply it toward future BPO's?

Would you guys please make sure that if any credits or compensation or whatever benefit ends up being implemented for over researched BPO's also properly benefits WH industrialists as well?

Thanks :)
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#131 - 2014-04-28 17:29:07 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you realize this is NOT true. Since Extra materials are being turned into normal materials, the ME level needed for perfect production will move at the same time you implement this change.


Oh. Yeah, good point. In the cases where extra materials exist, some blueprints will their "perfect" point, yes.


Uh, verb missing I believe. Kinda important one, too.

MDD
Nikita Madullier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-04-28 17:29:46 UTC
Are we going to see a change in materials used to make copies, as opposed to a reduction in time?

For example it took me ~9 days to make a single max run BPC of a Prototype cloaking device and that was using a POS . Needing consumer electronics for materials, although a minor incovience really rubs it in.

Also can we get a multiplier value for ME and TE on the blueprint, kind of like how we do with skill training? It would allow us to calculate additional levels of research.

I am really happy with these changes, makes things a lot simpler to understand - I have joked you could write a PhD on this game.
Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
#133 - 2014-04-28 17:30:00 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Mr. CCP GreyScale


I've been working on a Capital Component BPO since last year.. a propulsion engine its at a current level of ME 530. what level and rank would this be after the changes. I feel like you've just gimp'ed my chances of making isk from copies.. are is this good enough?

would this be perfect?


ME 530 => 0.1 / (1 + 530) = 0.000188 < 0.01 => depending if you round up or not this should either be perfect or lvl 9 as far as I can see.


Kadl wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


I have no love for the T2 BPOs, but some of them were used for direct production. So they were capable of producing 100 items in the time it took to make a BPO copy for a single item. That is not where the benefit is for T2 BPO owners.

The advantage for T2 BPO owners is that with skills maxed you will be able to copy from a blueprint 6.25% faster then produce from the same blueprint. That means that T2 BPO owners are gaining a 6.25% increase in production (if they switch to the copy then produce method).


They would have to pay to copy the BPO though, not sure if this offsets the increased production or not.
Myxx
The Scope
#134 - 2014-04-28 17:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.


Titan bpo research times:

1: 4.2d
2: 9.9d
3: 23.5d
4:
5:
6:
7: 750d
8: 1,828d
9: 4,256d
10: 10,116d (27~ years)

In other words, if you have a currently researched titan (or other super cap for that matter) bpo that is at a level above 7, you are essentially a ******* genius. If you're not, you're SOL and will require more mats.

I use this as an extreme example, but I'm more than a little concerned that this effect will trickle down to other slightly more common bpos that, in effect, hinders anyone from getting into doing high end production themselves without being reliant on an already established production line.

Here's an idea. Leave the ME/PE levels part of it the hell alone. There is enough documentation out there for any player to get the information on.


If you have a titan BPO that's currently above

I don't follow your reasoning here. 7% in the new system equates to ME 3 in the old system, which took 711 days to research. What's changed, other than the extra 39 days?


You misunderstood. *bangs head on desk a few times*

This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.

Yes?

All I'm saying is, you're kind of ******* some people over who would've left it at ME6 instead of moving further with it in the current system, because going further than that is ******* absurd, but now, in the new system, they HAVE to... even if the times required scale up pretty steeply to get back to 'perfection'. Despite that, even at what now qualifies as 'perfection' you still require more mats for pretty much anything whereas the returns on research dropped off pretty steeply to where you could go 40/100 ME/PE (or, ME/PE 6 in the case of capital bps as most would leave them there) and be basically fine on most stuff.

tl;dr: I see anything you touch as bad.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-04-28 17:30:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.

you're not thinking about t2 bpos correctly

t2 bpos allow you to have an absolute cost advantage: you're always producing cheaper than someone inventing. what matters is how much that t2 bpo (and the others of that type) can produce. if it can meet demand without invention, the price will be where invention is not profitable. if it can't, the price will largely depend on how much of the demand is met by invention

when you make it possible to produce more on a t2 bpo, every new unit it produces forces one invented unit out of the market. the profits on invention will fall until someone leaves.

producing more on a T2 BPO is absolutely a huge deal, much more than if you boosted its cost a little bit, because its impact on the market depends on the amount it can produce, not the costs (unless the cost is higher than invention)

a t2 bpo holder essentially has a monopoly: their price isn't dictated by their costs its dictated by what the market will bear

you absolutely should make it so a t2 bpo max copy speed is exactly equal to its current build speed: anything else is a buff that will push out inventors


as another person who detests t2 bpo's I am in complete agreement with Weaselior here - no buff to t2 bpo's period.

At some point your going to have to deal with them CCP. Your finally doing a major update on industry and still ignoring something that is a sore spot with many who have long memories. Why not finally bite the bullet - pay em out with isk - fix the runs at 'x' remaining and stop them being copied. Fix the perception that invention is not worhwhile, put everyone back on the same footing so that they have equal opportunity to skill up and invest their time and resources. Not just those who 'won' a lottery many years ago.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-04-28 17:31:18 UTC
Aryth wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I get a strange feeling when I see players (Weasilor, Aryth, ElectronHerd Askulf, etc.) having a better understanding of the economics than the Devs. It's a partly warm feeling, partly sick feeling.

Also, Eve Online's economics still make it the best game. Thank you CCP.

MDD


I do wish we were more public sometimes around what we do to the economy as I think it would draw a totally new type of player in. Then the paranoia kicks in. Ah well.



Reading about the FW thing on SA was the thing that perked my interest, as a matter of fact.

altrue wrote:


Yeah but an industry rewamp would still be a good opportunity to get rid of these T2 BPOs...



The real way to handle these isn't to get rid rather reduce their impact. If one t2 bpo can produce 1000 of a particular module a week, but 100,000 are traded a week, it affects for 1% of the volume and you can largely forget about it. The issue is if a bpo can produce 10, 20 or even 50% of the volume of an item and there are literally hundreds of examples where this is the case. Capping TE on T2 BPO's would be a good start, but wouldn't even begin to get to the point where it is worth inventing a lot of things.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
#137 - 2014-04-28 17:31:33 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
"The primary reason for this is to try and unify T1, T2 and T3 manufacturing around being dominated by build-from-copy rather than build-from-original. "


Really.

That was the plan.

Let's remove the annoying extra crud that everyone hates about manufacturing, by making the all have 1-person alt corps running a high sec POS, with a bunch of copy alts.

Log in, launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. Close. Launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. close. switch account.. Log in. launch, , select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. Close. Launch, select toon, deliver copy jobs, start copy jobs. close. switch account..
Repeat for the 2 alts per indy account.


Then gab fuel, undock, warp to pOS, deliver fuel, collect copies, back to station, create courier contract.

Repeat every day, if not multiple times every day.


Way to remove torture from the industry process CCP! Good...

Oh wait. You've just destroyed the manufacturing process.

Thanks for NOTHING!!!!!

i never understand what people think they're going to accomplish with posts like this
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#138 - 2014-04-28 17:32:58 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Mr. CCP GreyScale


I've been working on a Capital Component BPO since last year.. a propulsion engine its at a current level of ME 530. what level and rank would this be after the changes. I feel like you've just gimp'ed my chances of making isk from copies.. are is this good enough?

would this be perfect?


That is obviously over researched. The changes are really going to shaft all the people that have over researched BPO's and all the people who have overpaid for over researched BPO's. The chicken has come home to roost.
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-04-28 17:35:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I have one but it's a bit of a mess as it's got all kinds of misc math scattered all over it :/ With the info in the data dump it's pretty easy to calculate it though, I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a complete reference.

(Can someone be along shortly with a complete reference?)

Well, fine, since you twisted my arm:

RESEARCH RANKS FOR ALL BLUEPRINTS: http://pastebin.com/v5DaBnzd

IN CSV FORM: http://pastebin.com/xjjD7ur4

The query:
Quote:

select b.typeName, a.researchMaterialTime / 6000 as ME_Rank, a.researchProductivityTime / 6000 AS TE_Rank, a.researchCopyTime / 6000 AS Copy_Rank FROM invBlueprintTypes a LEFT JOIN invTypes b ON (a.blueprintTypeID = b.typeID) ORDER BY b.typeName;


Thank you :)

ST Mahan wrote:
First off, thank you CCP for putting out the Dev Posts, 2 in one day. Also looking forward to the other posts prior to Fan Fest.

Looks like a lot of time went into thinking about the indy side of the game. Very curious to see the team blog.

A question regarding Capital Ship BPO's ME. How will these work out. For example currently Charon has a magic number of ME3 and then doesn't improve further until ME6. Will this sort of tiered % reduction remain; (I'm assuming so) and if so is there a way to calculate this.


Tiered % essentially yes, although not quite the same; calculating it no, not without making your own spreadsheet. I'll think about this some more.



Yes, for sure it is time to update the rusty spreadsheets. Big smile

Thanks also for multiple Dev Posts on this update. I'll have to look at Cap BPO's to see how to prepare for the changes.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2014-04-28 17:37:23 UTC
This base change is actually increasing prices for things and you'll get more waste under the current math until you get to perfect. See:

http://i.imgur.com/pjHil5G.png

Notice that the blueprint at ME1 currently (to be converted to ME5%) is actually increasing in price. When you multiply the base amount by 1.11 (repeating), then subtract 5%, you don't wind up in the same place.

Formula for column D is just round(B*1.11111111111111111), formula for E is .95*D

Now, once you get to ME10%, they are indeed the same - but when you take my ME1 titan bpo, and give me a ME5% titan bpo, I'm gaining waste. I got 105% of the build cost in the current system, but what I'm getting in the new system is 105.55555555555555% of the old build cost (.95/.9)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.