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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
IIIMAPOBOgKA
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-04-28 15:11:23 UTC
What about BPOs like Moros, which is perfect at ME 6. After the patch it will be less than perfect and still need ton of work to be perfected again ?

That does'nt seem right
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#22 - 2014-04-28 15:11:51 UTC
The switch to 10-level research system is, lets say, interesting. It will help a lot with both its clarity and by easing some stress from the nerves of min/max obsessed players, giving them a final value to achieve (no 56573573 more hours for that last piece of trit).

I like the clarity part more, tho, and i see how the circular meter around the blueprint in the new manufacturing UI ties to it - its a neat concept.

It will also help a lot when deciding how good that blueprint you want to grab from a contract really is, because, that 200 ME 425mm definitely looks better than the 100ME one, but there's no way to really see its all the same without going through a third party website.
5n4keyes
Sacred Templars
#23 - 2014-04-28 15:12:32 UTC
Really loving the changes to research, couple of questions however!

- With these changes, does this mean that POS modules for example are now ME researchable, since currently you can research ME but it does nothing. Im assuming yes, as they are extra materials.

- What is going to happen to jobs in research, some of us might have some stupidly long BPO research going, which depending on when they patch is out, might overlap. Will all research get insta finished come patch day and then converted, or will research be lost?
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#24 - 2014-04-28 15:14:11 UTC
Odd question, but does this mean that researched BPCs, now having defined levels, could be sold directly on the market since there are only a static number of ME/TE combinations for each BPC?
Tara Tyrael
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
#25 - 2014-04-28 15:14:16 UTC
Seems legit the new way.

Still not figuring this out, you can get to ME rank 10, and you can't improve more then that, correct?

And yea, still waiting on pos number changes, need to know shall I put it down or keep it running :D
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#26 - 2014-04-28 15:15:52 UTC
IIIMAPOBOgKA wrote:
What about BPOs like Moros, which is perfect at ME 6. After the patch it will be less than perfect and still need ton of work to be perfected again ?

That does'nt seem right



Here's another example, for a more mass produced item - rigs - small rigs have perfect manufacturing even without research and medium ones go perfect before 10. And so do:

- R.A.M.s
- T II components
- Nanite Repair paste
- Station containers

etc.

So, what would become of blueprints like those?
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#27 - 2014-04-28 15:16:43 UTC
Quote:
So if I have a blueprint with ME 4 that is currently perfect under the existing system, it will now require days/weeks to re-perfect it? That seems really odd.

What I expected to see is that the perfect ME/TE for any given blueprint be calculated, and then blueprints transitioned to the new system based on a ratio between their current number and the perfect number. E.g. if I have a blueprint at ME 4, and a perfect ME would be 5, then I'm at 0.8 and should get an ME 8% (or TE 16%) on the new blueprint.

Obviously you won't be able to go with a 100% perfect value as the upper end for a lot of things, since many blueprints have ridiculous upper-ends on that scale, but some reasonable margin would probably make most people happy (e.g. 95% or 98% being the "perfect" ME used to scale the top end of the ratio).



I second this. For T2 manufacture, all those component BPOs that only needed low ME levels to max and we did the work to max them... how is the conversion going to work. My orca BPO is researched to 2 since at that level I only needed one extra capital component - what doe that scale to on the new system... 90% or 10%... its a big difference.

For the UI - how do those t2 component BPOs work into the manufacturing flow for that T2 product? Can you show us a full screen shot? or are you having to run each of those jobs in a separate UI and then the final T2 product in yet another?

T3 manufacturing works the same way... one screen or individual screens for each step of the process?

Will we see the ability to research invented BPCs to improve the ME/TE? if not are you finally going to get rid of BPOs and give us nuggs a chance to compete and actually make money?

Callic Veratar
#28 - 2014-04-28 15:18:52 UTC
My suggestion to maintain the previous ME research would be to add a custom field to every researched BPO on patch day. (Something like how meta level was used for the Inferno modules).

The BPO maintains that unique bit if info and, for those that care, it becomes a collector's item. All it needs is a good name, possibly even using Meta Level?
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#29 - 2014-04-28 15:23:45 UTC
IIIMAPOBOgKA wrote:
What about BPOs like Moros, which is perfect at ME 6. After the patch it will be less than perfect and still need ton of work to be perfected again ?

That does'nt seem right




"CCP why are you letting me research my BPOs and reduce wastage further? Please stop allowing me to improve my builds."
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#30 - 2014-04-28 15:24:40 UTC
Welp... this is something

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#31 - 2014-04-28 15:25:47 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
man i gotta say this is a VAST improvement: no longer will we have to explain to people that a bpo that's ME200 is basically the same as one that's ME 20, not 10x better. I will have to do the math though on how best to exploit the changeover :v:


oh my you're a fast reader Big smile


Being a part of "grr goons"™ he obviously knew >everything< even before Greyscale started writing the dev blog.


That was my first thought. Where are the break points to get the next percentage on patch day

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Kangaax
Money in da bank
#32 - 2014-04-28 15:26:13 UTC
Vesan Terakol wrote:
IIIMAPOBOgKA wrote:
What about BPOs like Moros, which is perfect at ME 6. After the patch it will be less than perfect and still need ton of work to be perfected again ?

That does'nt seem right



Here's another example, for a more mass produced item - rigs - small rigs have perfect manufacturing even without research and medium ones go perfect before 10. And so do:

- R.A.M.s
- T II components
- Nanite Repair paste
- Station containers

etc.

So, what would become of blueprints like those?

Also, please do not forget the T3 ship blueprints that do have 0% base waste, and the fact that you are moving the extra materials into the base cost.
Don Aubaris
#33 - 2014-04-28 15:27:59 UTC
Sounds not too bad. And makes things indeed alot easier to understand 'optimal' ME/TE.

However : i still find it incomprehensible that any company that is proud to be eco-friendly (well atleast your press-releases claim that Smile , dares to limit reprocessing to 50% of the used materials. And that in a space game in future. Even in todays world some products get better reprocessing rates. A companies policies should be present in its products were possible.
You really should rethink this. The 'easy' solution is usually not the best one.


As for the conversion old BPO -> new BPO, people should be compensated for their time. Always respect the efforts of a player.
determine time spent on old BPO : T1
determine level of the new BPO : L1
determine hypthotical time spent on the new BPO to reach level L1 : T2
Bonus points : (T2 - T1) * factor (factor to be determined as something reasonable)

Bonus Researh points : to be used for 'instant' research on other (new) BPO's.
Even for the one who has everything, I still assume new BPO's will get added in the future for new things.
Perhaps even make the bonus points a tradeble object so they can cash in.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2014-04-28 15:29:39 UTC
when it comes to insanely researched bpos, give these people a stupid non-functional collectors item or something. those were worthless compared to a properly researched bpo before, so they shouldn't be given actual value in exchange: they should get something shiny like the hull tanking elite cert

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Theodore Knox
Ducks in Outer Space
#35 - 2014-04-28 15:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Theodore Knox
Again, great blog - thanks to the proof reader... still needs moar graphs and faction mods =P

The rebalance between reprocessing / wastage / "extra materials" will really pay off. Thanks for fixing this.

Can we get an indication of what the tiering or ranks will be for all categories of BP... as you say, Ammo will be rank 1 (so a three day research time for max ME). Rigs? Are all modules going to be rank 2? And how will this telescope for higher rank items that have lower component quantities (i.e. Caps - I'm guessing we'll be able to cut ME research at about level 4 or 5 to get perfect build costs, or are we really going to need to chase insanely long research times for the competitive edge?)

/Theo
Chjna
the Goose Flock
#36 - 2014-04-28 15:33:02 UTC
Dumbing down the game. Thank you ccp I want to play a dumb game, therefore I play EvE.

Most unneeded change in a long time, give us some sort of new features, and make it harder, not the other way around...

MMOs tend to be less complex the older they get, and tend to loose the edge they had, and in the long run players.

Remove T2 BPOs

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#37 - 2014-04-28 15:35:59 UTC
Since you're trying to move Eve away from "build from original (BPO)" and more towards "build from copy (BPC)", can we have an increase in station copy facilities to be closer to on-par with station manufacturing facilities? Now it seems like there's 10x or more manufacturing facilities for every copy facility.

MDD
Tara Tyrael
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
#38 - 2014-04-28 15:36:11 UTC
Chjna wrote:
Dumbing down the game. Thank you ccp I want to play a dumb game, therefore I play EvE.

Most unneeded change in a long time, give us some sort of new features, and make it harder, not the other way around...

MMOs tend to be less complex the older they get, and tend to loose the edge they had, and in the long run players.


CCP, please introduce dislike button on forums, just for nutcases like this...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#39 - 2014-04-28 15:36:31 UTC
And so ends the cottage industry of creating high quality capital ship and capital component BPC's for resale.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2014-04-28 15:39:08 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Since you're trying to move Eve away from "build from original (BPO)" and more towards "build from copy (BPC)", can we have an increase in station copy facilities to be closer to on-par with station manufacturing facilities? Now it seems like there's 10x or more manufacturing facilities for every copy facility.

MDD


As mentioned in this previous devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-better-worlds/

We are removing the slots and introducing a cost scaling system instead. The next devblog will cover that in more detail.

So many blogs because so many changes Bear

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones