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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1121 - 2014-04-24 10:57:12 UTC
She was using a T2 ACR as an argument that "yeah you can fit a Vigi on TQ now" and still needed meta 4 plate and prop.

Anyway, even that abomination won't fit after this absolutely unnecessary nerf to an underused ship.

Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1122 - 2014-04-24 12:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
King Fu Hostile wrote:


T2 fitting rig, gg


so your gonna cry over a extra 35 mil on this ship? fine you CAN put on a t1 ACR by putting on a meta4 cap injector.

oh, and my t2 trimarks last i checked arnt those like 10 mil or somthing? super cheap compared to years ago where it was like 500mil for a t2 trimark or something ridiculous. There is no reason this day and age to not be using t2 rigs on everyship since they became so cheap.

about that 1600 plate comment. yeah meta4 1600's are still very standard in alot of ships NOT excluding the vigilant. I wont even discuss the meta4 prop comment.

Cannibal Kane wrote:


Fitting a ANC Rig currently is not required if you bling it up.

I don't mind fitting nerfs, what does bother me it is being done on a ship already rarely used. If you are going to nerf a ship that is popular to curb it's use like they did with Cane I can understand.

The Vigilant I don't. If you want to change I would understand if they tried to make it more popular.. but not in this instance.

vigilant rarely used? i see this ship used more than the diemost on most hac gangs. it isn't rarely used by a long shot.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1123 - 2014-04-24 14:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
elitatwo wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The Gila is severely hampered by the neglect of the entire drone weapon system, there are only 2 possible fits. T2 heavy missiles with precision missiles (if you have those skills) or rapid lights.


Maybe you just need to get used to 'drone-kiting'. The Stratios, the Astero and some other boats can do it, with the new Eos as posterchild for heavy drone kiting.



The whole point of the movement to a mobile drone system rather than sentries, is exactly this, the gain of movement on the battlefield,

The stratios too would benefit greatly from this superdrone concept, there are many ships that would, but not if the drone weapons system neglected light drones (cruiser class) (battlecruiser and larger mediums and lights)

The astero? Worm bonuses? Yes please.

Hence the only two possible practical fits for the Gila, The stratios would not even have that option.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1124 - 2014-04-24 15:09:10 UTC
It's too bad EWAR drones didn't get sorted out before all this pirate rebalancing started. Then Guristas pilots could be wailing with rage over how their mission ships now bonus drones that don't even deal damage and the superdrones could be put on the SoE ships.

Ah, but that's a different scenario for a different reality than this one.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1125 - 2014-04-25 12:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rab See
King Fu Hostile wrote:
She was using a T2 ACR as an argument that "yeah you can fit a Vigi on TQ now" and still needed meta 4 plate and prop.

Anyway, even that abomination won't fit after this absolutely unnecessary nerf to an underused ship.




An underused ship is one that can be replaced with another easily. With the changes, this ship will become essential (as I have repeatedly said) for gate and WH work. The Moo can no longer do this, it came down to a cruiser choice, and now its the only one.

Once people realise this, the value .. price, will go up markedly.

In the pvp I engage in we nearly always take a Vigi or Moo in armour gangs. It will be obvious which to use from now on.

But lets get back to the Cynabal, it been bent over and left there for all to see. The Vigilant will simply have to work a little to do what it used to.
T0adwart
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1126 - 2014-04-27 22:56:42 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
would you mind posting that fit

just want to add that targeting range can be shorter than drone control range, for the purpose of assisting. wondering if it could be fit differently with that in mind.


because

Ebag Trescientas wrote:
Okay, yeah, it's a fit no one would ever use. The DPS isn't that much more than 3 DDA's (635) or even 2 DDA's (561), and the loss of any high slot DPS means a net DPS loss. But I wouldn't mind having an alt sitting at 100km with two medium drones on /assist on me. :)

as a multiboxer, drone assist is something I would trade tank for, and I'm too lazy to try to figure out on my own what fit you are referring to. not a biggie, though... the drone assist alts i trained fly ishtars anyway.


If you use this for pve, your drones will be dead long before they engage.. for pvp, well how long will it take for the drones to get where they going ie 100km . Never used a any of the assist features as I am a noob, but looking at the forums, everyone uses sentry drone carriers and drone assist in pvp is with sentries, for a reason I assume. Regardless, its a long long train to get to a sentry ishtar, a gila was a nice stepping stone in sentry drone passive tanking if that is what you were aiming for, ie gila, rattlesnake. Will the rattlesnake now become a heavy drone boat ?? in which case I will need to join the masses and get a drake.. sigh
motie one
Secret Passage
#1127 - 2014-04-29 00:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
[quote=CCP Rise]I'm back!



Gila:
  • Medium drone powerhouse (remember the Medium Drone buff in the above linked Dev Blog)
  • We expect a lot of feedback here, I'll do my best to answer questions as they come, but the basic thinking is that this is new and interesting, very powerful, and frees it from overlap with the Ishtar (which simply does sentries better)


    • ========================================================================================

    GILA

    [

    Role Bonus:
    500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)


    Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
    Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
    Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
    Sensor strength: 22
    Signature radius: 145(-5)
    Cargo Hold: 440

    ========================================================================================


    Light missile and rocket max velocity going? That was not the bonus at all!

    This was,
    Special Ability: 50% bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missile velocity
    So what is happening to our heavy and heavy assault missiles?
    gawrshmapooo
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #1128 - 2014-04-29 08:59:56 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    King Fu Hostile wrote:
    So CCP why did you have to make the Vigilant even more useless as it currently is?

    What was the reasoning for the PG nerf?


    almost nothing is changing with the vigilant. except now it cant have the best tank and the best guns.

    so settle down



    Its tank isn't all that great really. I mean yea, a 1600 plate gives you some work room, but you still don't have much EHP, and the hull costs 300mil (240 as of this writing, most likely because of these changes).

    "Lowering PG some" just to balance out weirdness in the attributes would be fine. A ten percent cut isn't "some"
    If Rise thinks the Vigilant is OP, that's fine, nerf it, but say it's OP.

    1,200 PG is a nice round number too, I don't see what's strange about it at all.

    I don't get it.
    A ten percent nerf "just because" seems rather drastic and doesn't have a point to me.

    I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.
    gawrshmapooo
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #1129 - 2014-04-29 09:35:19 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Laiannah Sahireen wrote:
    Please just shut up already

    Another recipient of the block feature. Yes, it's the start of the week - as in an anticipated dev update. Which could very well apply to the Pirate cruisers thread - except everyone's ecstatic with the changes (particularly the Gila and Vigilant).


    I'm not happy with the Vigilant.
    I doubt Rise is going to change anything just because we ask him.
    The Vigilant as it stands now is a very powerful tool in a very, very small number of situations.
    This is offset by its high cost, high skill requirements to fly properly, and by its lack of general usefulness (I have only seen two or three other people flying Vigilants in the past year.)

    A vigilant with an 800 plate (Because of the lack of PG), a Trimark, and two (faction) EANMs AND a damage control has ~25k ehp. For 250-300 mil that is not worth it to me. (My current 1600 Vigi has 34k)
    As it stands now I have to put a current router on it to make the fit work anyway.


    Again, if Rise mentioned that he did this because he felt the Vigilant was too powerful, or for literally any reason at all, I would accept it.
    But "Hey you are losing a third of your ehp just because I felt like it" just leaves me scratching my head.

    I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #1130 - 2014-04-29 11:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    CCP Rise, is it a typo. Previously the Gila ALSO had a velocity (range) bonus to HAMs and Heavy missiles.
    This seems to be missing in your post when you only refer to dropping the bonus on lights and rockets? Rockets??? Where did a rocket bonus come from???
    Can you confirm we are not losing the velocity bonus to heavy and Ham launchers? As that IS somewhat of a game changer!Shocked

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1131 - 2014-04-29 12:00:02 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Can you confirm we are not losing the velocity bonus to heavy and Ham launchers?


    Of course you're losing the velocity bonus. The ship doesn't get 4 bonuses.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #1132 - 2014-04-29 12:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Can you confirm we are not losing the velocity bonus to heavy and Ham launchers?


    Of course you're losing the velocity bonus. The ship doesn't get 4 bonuses.

    Correct, it will have 3 bonuses of which only 2 can be used at any given time to achieve anything close to "optimal use" with a split weapon system.
    4% to resists is a given, can't not use that 1 - Leaving 2 bonuses, Drones and Missiles of which only 1 can be fully utilized at a time.
    3 DDA's for max drone damage.
    or
    3 BCU's to optimize missile damage.

    Fit for max Drones = So so Missiles
    Fit for max missiles = Meh Drones
    Try to fit for both, you're likely to end up with less than desirable results.

    My new fit is likely to go along the lines of - Max Missile Dps (3 BCU's) with drone support (ship bonus only)

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #1133 - 2014-04-29 14:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Can you confirm we are not losing the velocity bonus to heavy and Ham launchers?


    Of course you're losing the velocity bonus. The ship doesn't get 4 bonuses.

    Correct, it will have 3 bonuses of which only 2 can be used at any given time to achieve anything close to "optimal use" with a split weapon system.
    4% to resists is a given, can't not use that 1 - Leaving 2 bonuses, Drones and Missiles of which only 1 can be fully utilized at a time.
    3 DDA's for max drone damage.
    or
    3 BCU's to optimize missile damage.

    Fit for max Drones = So so Missiles
    Fit for max missiles = Meh Drones
    Try to fit for both, you're likely to end up with less than desirable results.

    My new fit is likely to go along the lines of - Max Missile Dps (3 BCU's) with drone support (ship bonus only)

    Thanks Ocker, i realise something is screwy here, Rise has cut and pasted directly from the worm it seems. The Gila has never had a rocket bonus so unusual for it to give it up.

    It has a Ham and heavy missile velocity bonus and he HAS NOT said that is being given up.

    It was also a special ship bonus Not a racial bonus so quite a lot of confusion there .Particularly as it seems that it goes against what he stated he was trying to achieve. Cutting range on his rapids? Wierd. Shocked

    It would be nice to have CCP Rise let us know what exactly he means as giving up bonuses that do not exist is rather wierd?

    In reply to blocked quoted post, Rise might have also meant, 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage and velocity (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

    Who knows, the original message is clearly an error, do you have a special relationship that gives you dev like knowledge?
    possibly it should be CCP rise who answers for himself rather than you doing his job for him?What?

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    Sheimi Madaveda
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1134 - 2014-04-30 02:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheimi Madaveda
    I'm surprised that so many people think the Vigilant changes are horrible. Sure, there's a PG nerf but if you needed Neutrons on the ship then you have been using it very poorly because the main reason to field a Vigilant is for the web it provides. Were it not for that web, you would have picked a Deimos instead. Following that line of reasoning, lowering guns to Ions isn't a big deal because you're a LOT faster to close range or otherwise apply that web, which again, is the entire point of flying Serpentis to begin with. The lock range also makes the Vigilant more resistant to damps... yet again, another serious buff to the ship that most people aren't capitalizing on.

    Now, the problem with the Vigilant is that you have t1 resists... so you do need quite a bit of buffer compared to t2 variants.

    This is what a balanced DPS/Tank Vigilant would look like. It has 43k EHP and 772 DPS before heating its guns.
    =========================================
    [Vigilant, Summertime Heat]
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Internal Force Field Array I
    1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

    Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
    Medium Capacitor Booster II
    Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
    Warp Disruptor II

    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
    Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I


    Hammerhead II x5
    ==========================================

    For a setup that uses a Vigilant only for its web, this is what it'd look like. It's about 6-15 over on PG or something, but that is easy to fix. 651 DPS before heat and 51k EHP with about 75% resists across the board.

    [Vigilant, Webifier]
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Internal Force Field Array I
    1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

    Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
    Medium Capacitor Booster II
    Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
    Warp Disruptor II

    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
    Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II
    Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I


    Hammerhead II x5

    Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png 
    Sheimi Madaveda
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1135 - 2014-04-30 02:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheimi Madaveda
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    *snip*

    It has a Ham and heavy missile velocity bonus and he HAS NOT said that is being given up.

    It would be nice to have CCP Rise let us know what exactly he means as giving up bonuses that do not exist is rather wierd?

    In reply to blocked quoted post, Rise might have also meant, 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage and velocity (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

    Who knows, the original message is clearly an error, do you have a special relationship that gives you dev like knowledge?
    possibly it should be CCP rise who answers for himself rather than you doing his job for him?What?


    You are clueless. If the bonus is not there, then it is -wait for it- NOT THERE. I do not see a missile velocity bonus on the rework, therefore it will not be there. It does not take a supercomputer to figure this one out. You are certainly not the first to have thought these things but the OP is still the same. It would have been changed by now if your line of reasoning was correct.

    What evidence do you have that the original message is an error, anyways?

    Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png 
    motie one
    Secret Passage
    #1136 - 2014-04-30 08:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
    Sheimi Madaveda wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    *snip*

    It has a Ham and heavy missile velocity bonus and he HAS NOT said that is being given up.

    It would be nice to have CCP Rise let us know what exactly he means as giving up bonuses that do not exist is rather wierd?

    In reply to blocked quoted post, Rise might have also meant, 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage and velocity (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

    Who knows, the original message is clearly an error, do you have a special relationship that gives you dev like knowledge?
    possibly it should be CCP rise who answers for himself rather than you doing his job for him?What?


    You are clueless. If the bonus is not there, then it is -wait for it- NOT THERE. I do not see a missile velocity bonus on the rework, therefore it will not be there. It does not take a supercomputer to figure this one out. You are certainly not the first to have thought these things but the OP is still the same. It would have been changed by now if your line of reasoning was correct.

    What evidence do you have that the original message is an error, anyways?



    I am also wondering.

    Did you notice that the entire bonus quoted is wrong?
    There was never a bonus to maximum rocket velocity.
    He has made a cut and paste error in his posting. He has simply posted the Worm information.
    So is it any suprise that people are wondering what the new bonuses actually are?

    Ccp Rise did say let me know If you see any typos, I don't think he said, you are clueless, suck it up!ShockedLol

    Ps you might want to remove your recruiting footer when going into attack mode, probably not good for business.Straight
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1137 - 2014-04-30 10:53:09 UTC
    Weaselior wrote:
    Does the Gila really get a 500% bonus to medium drones instead of the 50% you'd expect, or is that a typo?

    edit: oh, it only gets two drones, gotcha
    I think it's a typo and they meant 200%.

    A 500% bonus on two medium drones is the equivalent of 12 medium drones.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #1138 - 2014-04-30 16:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    Weaselior wrote:
    Does the Gila really get a 500% bonus to medium drones instead of the 50% you'd expect, or is that a typo?

    edit: oh, it only gets two drones, gotcha
    I think it's a typo and they meant 200%.

    A 500% bonus on two medium drones is the equivalent of 12 medium drones.

    It gets that strange bonus to two mediums, instead of the usual drone bonus to 5 heavies it previously had.
    200% would be a brutal nerf to it's drone dps.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Sgt EVE
    Garage Bagage
    #1139 - 2014-05-01 14:54:25 UTC
    comparison vigilant old - new

    old
    [Vigilant, pvp]

    5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M)

    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Navy Cap Booster 800)
    Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

    2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Damage Control II
    2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
    Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I

    5x Hammerhead II

    new
    [Vigilant, pvp new]

    5x Heavy Ion Blaster II (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M)

    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Navy Cap Booster 800)
    Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

    2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Damage Control II
    2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
    Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I

    5x Hammerhead II

    result: -7% damage, -20% range
    no big nerf but compared to the other new faction cruisers it now has
    medium damage, medium speed, weak tank and closest range.
    and this all for a barely used and very expensive ship.
    Cage Man
    Fusion Enterprises Ltd
    Pandemic Horde
    #1140 - 2014-05-02 00:16:59 UTC
    When will be seeing some love to missile users ?? a missile bonused pirate faction cruiser will be welcomed and is much needed.