Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So long as the fact that drones are a complete weapon system is remembered in this whole process, then the Gila is changed from a second rate sentry ship, behaving like a battleship, but without the appropriate support, into a highly mobile ship able to roam the battlefield at will. There are lots of PvE activities that will benefit from the Gila becoming more mobile.

There are those who believe that balance involves crippling a ship in some way in order to achieve more power elsewhere, that is not balance, i quote from the battleship thread to clarify.

Quote:

" We disagree with your concept that chopping 2 legs off a table and moving them all to one side makes it somehow balanced, because it doesn't have too many legs...."

Frankly I am concerned there are those who consider that balancing sense. It makes one quite depressed. Even more so when they state it should be our balancing goal, and anything else is wrong.

If the ships retain the ability to use smaller bonused drones than the primary weapon system, and drone control range matches the drones being applied, then the overall weapons system is balanced, and will be effective.

So in short if that is considered and acted on, the Gila will be good but different from the Ishtar, the ishtar will excell at sentry usage at the cost of mobility, the Gila will excel at mobility with the drones to compliment it, at the cost of using sentries.

Both ships effective, both achieving their roles in different ways. That is balancing, not making them all the same and dull and homogenous, in the foolish belief that different cannot be balanced and need crippling in some way.

Out of curiosity, when you worked out the new EHP of Hammerheads did you also work out their ability to hit a moving target?

The problem with "super drones" is not with the drones themselves but the lack of options, limited bandwidth and bonuses that come with them..

The Gila and Rattlesnake are now effectively Missile boats with (limited when fit for missile Dps) drone support.



Any word yet on when this may be hitting the test server?

This is completely unlikely but pls do the following:

Give the ab bonus to serp ships, also give them a trackign bonus - keep stats (and boni) as they are otherwise.

Make them supperb scram/web railkiters with a good gtfo option, still weak against blobs and easy to kill in fleet.

Give shamsha ships way increased agility and speed - basicely give them cyna/dram stats mobility wise. Give them a double range bonus atop (100% instead of the usual 100%) and change the phastasm a bit so it gets more lows.

Make them superb laser kiters, succi would be a shield tanked version of the slicer with more range (or dps) and the phantasm into a shield tanked tanky omen navy issue with more range/dps.

The ashimmu can get its old school neuts, it also should lose a high and a mid for 2 extra lows and a armour resistance bonus. Making it a tanky neut (nos) ship that shines in small scale hac fleets. (no idea what to do with the cruor)

Gila should get a 700% hp bonus to ecm drones, atop a 700% jam strenght bonus (might need to fiddle with stats - basicely a ec-600=1 linked falcon jam) to drones, it keeps its 5 drones and gets a full scale missile dps bonus. Basicely a tankier rook with actual dps - also the only drone based ewar ship in the game. Yeah ecm sucks, but it would make it intersting.

The cynabal shoudl be turned into a missile ship with a unique role bonus - lowering the reload of rlmls to 5 seconds. It aslo gets a range bonus. It loses a lot of pg and cpu and keeps its mobility. Making it a superb missile based kiter - basicely a less tanked/ranged prenerf cerb with higher speed. (not sure what to do with the dram, amybe a double rocket range bonus, mach maybe a rhlml ship with a 5 sec reload).


Pirate ships shgould be unique, extremely strong solo or in very small gangs, balanced by cost there and subpar in bigger fleets. This would make all of them unique and intersting.

Why do people keep talking about Gilas they propose, instead of the Gila CCP Rise is planning to give us?

Being as you are either still trolling and trying to get a bite, or so unaware of the comments of other people than the "companion accounts" you are using

I will post my comments on the rattlesnake thread that discuss the issues with dealing with a weapons system in an unbalanced way.

But somehow, I think it is wasting my time to try to enlighten you, as it is just you know, to difficult, for you to consider anything else but never let it be said I didn't try.
Please note this includes information on the Gila, rattlesnake and drone system, as they all share aspects of the issues.

Please pay attention. And try to read to the end before you jump on the most inconsequential part before leaping to completely wrong conclusions as to what is being said

The issue is that for both the Gila and the Rattlesnake in different ways, the drone weapon system is exactly that, an entire system with many checks and balances, plusses and minuses.-It has serious issues, and at some point will need a major rework.- but that is an aside.

Range of control and the fact that drones come in different sizes and abilities, and that these can be switched according to threat, are the pillars that support the system as a weapons platform.

The problem is the 2 main pillars have been disregarded whilst focusing on the new superdrone concept.
The superdrone concept has great potential to be a great addition to the game. But only if the smaller drones beneath the Superdrones are taken into account in the whole interplay of the system. And the battle-space these drones operate in and the control range applicable relates to the drones abilities.

But if you completely remove functionality and abilities of core components of the whole system, the balance is broken, and it will be impossible to know just how good they are,as one will be making continual comparisons with the other missing and changed elements.how can one compare the Gila and its use of wonderful bonused superdrones if you are struggling with losing 3.5 effective light drones and fighting to somehow stay alive.
When you change a core variable, you change only one at a time, or the data is meaningless.

There is also the issue that micromanagement of the lesser drones in the system is significantly more hands on, the unbonused drones (and fewer in the gila) are fragile and weaker, they need more effort to keep alive and are exposed to damage for longer as they do damage less quickly.
If it is necessary to use the MJD for range control then the MJD now takes one well out of drone control range adding to drone micromanagement. All of these issues are annoying an unpleasant rather than fatal, but is making the game more annoying a positive improvement?
This is over and above the more direct impacts that have been detailed en mass over dozens of pages, i know there is a lot to read but that is better than me typing pages for you now. Try to read, I will not do ALL the work for you!

So in short the rattlesnake has become a missile boat. With supporting drones. This is not the dual weapon system ship that we are used to. Whilst one can certainly adapt, the method of making the drones unpleasant to use, is a very poor way to introduce superdrones.

The Gila is severely hampered by the neglect of the entire drone weapon system, there are only 2 possible fits. T2 heavy missiles with precision missiles (if you have those skills) or rapid lights.

So the question is is it a good idea to rebalance a ship by neglecting the core concept of a weapons system being a system by ripping it out and just replacing part with a different mechanic. Or is it better to consider the whole system and doing it properly and not pissing off existing users and making it a pain for new ones?

I do not believe that is either deliberate or intended. The forums are here to give the Devs feedback, they are under considerable pressure to deliver changes, to a tight timescale, we NEED to point out issues when they are seen, to help them do their job for the BENEFIT OF ALL,

Aside from that the resolutions are remarkably simple.

Gila 100% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light drones. To keep approximately the same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake 50% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light and medium drones, keeps same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake either 25km to drone control range to keep same effective drone control range to prevent the new dead area, where drone damage will not be applied. Or drop the new launcher and add to the missile damage bonus,to keep it the same as originally suggested.

The idea is that the lesser drones are a valid part of the weapons system and deserve just as much attention if balance is to achieved, and that the whole battlespace needs to be considered in order not to create accidental deadspots that add nothing but annoyance to the game.

(If CCP Rise wanted to buff the ship some more, this could be also achieved by an additional high slot, his choice, naturally would effect the ability to fit other things too.) The other solutions would be just as effective without buffing anything.


NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)

The forum thread is so long because as in the case where one sees a nail on the floor, one can either pick it up and solve the problem, or argue incessantly for hours as to why it is not a problem and why it is too much effort to pick it up.

Until someone steps on it.

Seems that many still just want to argue and not actually deal with it.

I hope that finally you might understand other peoples issues, If not nothing anyone can write will persuade you.

My apologies, an error slipped in a Typo, the post should have read 100% bonus to damage and hit points for light drones not 200% the intention was to keep approximately the same damage and hit points as light drones currently have. 200% as has been pointed out would have been quite an absurd increase in capability, sorry about my mistake. It has been corrected.

The jury is out, and we wIll need to test the superdrone concept before we can realy know how well they perform, if the integrity of the drone weapon system is maintained then we will have the chance to clearly see how they perform, without losing the current light drone ability of the ship and being forced into using Only RLML as there would be no other effective frigate defence.

With these suggestions implemented, HML can be used again for all players (rather than only those with T2 weapons) and we will see if the gains in mobility are a significant advantage and play well with the new concept.

I believe they will, but the facts of the testing will make that clear one way or another.
I think we will all be more comfortable either way with light drones being corrected and remaining an adequate defence against frigates,

And, sadly, now if you want web efficiency, you go for serpentis.

In fact, at BS level, the split was already there with the Bhaal vs Vindi, now they are just making it uniformly different.

vigilant cant replace ashimmu role

I am wondering if CCP plays the same game as we do

A: Things weren't working.
B: If you want Web power, care to tell me exactly how long it will take you to train to a reasonable Serpentis level? It's what.... 20 days for 2 Cruiser V's? Then about the same for the weapons. The mods you already have trained. So you can be ready come summer to simply swap the base hull if you can be bothered without breaking a sweat.

And you have the versatility for a whole lot of other ships if you want as well.

Still no answer from CCP Rise about the Cynabal rethink he had stated? I'm curious about what's going on in their minds right now..

I don't want to see my favorite pirate cruiser losing any unique ability to actually PVP. Arty cynnies do work in some instances just like auto kiting fits do though surpassed by both the vagabond and tornado now.

Please do not make me sell my cynnies for lack of reason to use them.. man i just got back into the game and saw that.

Both the Cynabal and Vigilant are the two pirate cruisers that i love, but with these changes i doubt i'll ever even touch one again

Hell add speed to the Cynabal and keep the PG. at least then it would still be of use and actually a worthwhile investment (or add additional falloff, optimal, tracking, anything really...)

The Vigilant needs new life breathed into it, there is no point in spending the price on that ship when a cheap Thorax will work or a Deimos can be on par with less cost. The speed buff is wonderful for both blasters/rails. Issue is youre taking away PG to a rarely used/seen ship.

Whenever i see a Vigilant now I usually end up thinking "Holy hell they still exist!" It's a great ship design for very VERY limited situations where you are 100% certain you will not get a gang dropped on you. But without a true buff, that is all it was good for and most likely never used for post summer...

Don't kill two out of three of the only fun pirate cruisers for no reason...


And don't deny it, everyone wants to fly a Vigilant. It's a fun ship, but almost useless in a unique fashion...